The Current State of Things-

[ThePaladinTech]

Edited/updated June 26th

No more clients, extenders, or placeshifter keys...

Two posts by Jeff / Narflex:
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...1&postcount=43

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...&postcount=903

My two cents take it or leave it:

I think Jeff has been doing what he can for us, I think in truth quite a bit has been done in the one week (yeah it's only been a week). I want everything to work and SageTV to continue to be the wonderful thing it has been for me for the past 5 years. But on the other hand I live on earth, and I'm pretty confident if we were in Jeff's shoes we would have done the same thing. and I realize SageTV could've gone out of business, they could of shut the whole mess down- they didn't. I know it may feel that way, but all things considered I think they have been pretty gracious about it.

With that said-

I'm concerned about the future of my SageTV world - I'm only concerned about it until something as good as or better then it comes along. I've been looking at alternatives. so far? Yuck! I mean seriously, it's bizarre to me how SageTV wasn't way bigger then it was... I have my fingers crossed that "full speed ahead" and a whole lot of smileys and 'developer please email us" means something to the effect of "you thought sagetv was cool? just wait!"

So that means SageTV has to keep me afloat till whatever that new goodness is. There is certainly the possibility that whatever comes next will not contain things I love about SageTV, But I've got to hope it does. Did I mention I've been looking at Alternatives? ... y-u-c-k Xbox as an extender...Really? No Placeshifting? come on! ... etc, etc. So Certainly for me I am looking at alternatives only if nothing better comes along and SageTV quits being a viable solution.

So far (again in one week) - It seems that the major concerns are:

EPG Data
EPG Data - We've been told we have at least one year, while it is true that perhaps the bill was already paid for a year that certainly doesn't mean they had to provide it for a year (or maybe more it does say "at least"). I doubt that that bill is a blip googles accounting department cares about. So for that. - Thank you Jeff!

EPG Data part two - http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56228 - Slugger has already created a plugin that once he gets the ok from Schedules Direct we will have a simple solution for $20 a year - For that Thank you Slugger!

EPG Data parts three through XXX - most users outside the US are using some kind of scraper not as elegant as the first two but still a solution.

Sage Server Software:
Jeff / Narflex got the OK to give us a couple of modified executables that let any 5x or 6x key work for 7x http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56225 - Thank you for that as well!

Plugin Repository:
There is a post somewhere that you can parse an XML file, download all the zips, modify the XML to point to the new location. So worse case- you can have them locally. best case someone will host them somewhere for us.

The Community:
Jeff Says " ..but we do value the community and are trying to make everyone happy." - I again believe that, Whatever is coming I think they will welcome people to help shape it (Um we have FANTASTIC volunteer developers here don't we?) and they will need some schmucks like me and some of you to kick the tires. So keeping this community together may be in there best interest, sure they could get just *anybody* to do that, but I think we know the Rabid Sage Community can and will eagerly join the frey. (pun and mis-spelling intended)

We have a year on the forums at sagetv.com... After that I hope we find something better then the google groups thing (but I notice 200+ people have signed up there already). Someone mentioned a forum at AVS, someone mentioned one at geektonic ... Personally I'd like to see it at geektonic, one of us in charge Oh and just a heads up - if you think that jeff / andy / or someone at google isn't monitoring that unofficial forum you're foolish! Unofficial group: http://groups.google.com/group/unofficial-sagetv-forum


Also hopefully there will be a forum for the new project by the time this one goes away, and they will have some sub forums for the 'legacy' software?

The sticking point for the moment: Sage Placeshifter licenses / Sage Client Licenses / Sage Extenders:

First Jeff says

"Not sure what we can do about the clients right now....that's sort of a different situation. We are trying to figure out solutions to the problems the community is having...I can't promise anything at this time...but we do value the community and are trying to make everyone happy. " - Again, Thank you Jeff, I believe you are doing what you can.

He also says (regarding flashing firmware on a WD live+)
"Don't waste your time. You won't be able to get it to work. Even if you had the identical hardware manufactured and put identical firmware on it; it still would not work. We're smarter than that. (just trying to save people from spending a lot of time trying to get that to work and failing) " - This one I don't think he is lying to us either, but there is still the part of me that thinks "never say never!"


So regarding extenders / Clients / placeshifter licenses I ask the following:

I think Jeff is doing what he can, working through possible solutions for this piece

Jeff - I know you can't answer, but I know your reading -- Any- ANY chance that some kind of firmware could be made available for us to be able to purchase someones unit (like the WD live + or something else) and make it into an extender? By going this route it would provide us a way for us to get more extenders (what I think the majority of us want) and the firmware wouldn't be giving away any secrets?? I don't know just a thought. (and this route would be a lot more inexpensive for us then the client placeshifter route)

Clients / Placeshifter Licenses - We all know the HD-300 runs the linux placeshifter mini-client... So in my mind that would be the route to go over client licenses ... We'd end up buying small units like say the zotac, running linux on them and configuring the linux placeshifter right or no? EDIT: No I'm not right

For The client we would need a windows license, would take longer to boot, would need to constantly be patched etc. I remember those days, that was too much like work.

One other thought - I'm no linux expert but I'm betting the community could come up with a standard client (maybe the zotec -- not promoting it just the only one that pops to mind) and someone creating an install ISO - buy the 'standard' hardware, download the iso - boom you got a client.


UPDATES To original Post
Update: if you have multiple server licenses you can run one as a client http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49568
Update: Seems that what Jeff may have been implying is that the hardware in the hd300 is digitally signed, and the firmware checks the digital signature (currently)
Update: Although the hd units run linux it is not the same program we can download to run on linux, it is generally agreed that the linux place shifter client is inferior to the windows placeshifter client
Update: If you are looking for the sageTV software here is a link to V6, V7, and the last V7Beta: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56137
Update: Link to where folks are talking about what they may do since they cannot get extenders anymore: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56134
Update: Link to where folks are talking about alternative software to SageTV (just in case) : http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56082

And lets close this rambling post in song

Originally Posted by jaminben

I believe HD300's are our are future
Sage programed them well and let them lead the way
Showed us all the beauty they possess inside
Gave them a sense of pride to make it easier to watch TV

Let Jeff's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody's searching for an extender
GoogleTV needs someone to look up to
Google never found anyone to fulfill its needs
A lonely place to be
So I learned to depend on SageTV

I decided long ago, never to walk in WMC's shadows
If SageTV fails, if GoogleTV succeeds
At least I live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take my extenders from me
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Beside my tv's
The greatest love of all
It's easy to achieve
Learning to love an extender
It is the greatest love of all

And if by chance, that special TV
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in SageTV

[graywolf]

Points very well made and summarized.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by graywolf

Points very well made and summarized.

+1. Nice job.

[Evil_Attorney]

Great summary. My vote also goes towards providing a non-digitally signed HD300 firmware so that we can play around with it on similarly-chipped devices.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

One other thought - I'm no linux expert but I'm betting the community could come up with a standard client (maybe the zotec -- not promoting it just the only one that pops to mind) and someone creating an install ISO - buy the 'standard' hardware, download the iso - boom you got a client.

The problem is that the PC linux client was always the red-headed stepchild, and never worked well. It does not use the Nvidia VDPAU offloads for decoding & rendering video, meaning that it an Ion would probably not be powerful enough to playback a BD rip with the SageTV Linux client. The linux client is also very picky about what video driver you use. Unless you use either the Nvidia or ATI proprietary drivers, you're likely to get a weird "flashing" OSD. I tried a few patches for them, but they were never able to solve it on my system (with an ATI IGP).

That's why I'm so hopeful about either being able to buy more HD300s, or running the HD300 f/w elsewhere. I hope Google either lets us buy HD300s, or some hacker in a free country can make that work.

Drew

[BobPhoenix]

Do you guys remember the FIRST Hauppauge MVP extender software written by a user. It used a client instance on the base computer that the MVP connected to and streamed to the MVP from there. This was before Sage made their OWN client for the MVP. If we could do something like this with the new HD MVP or the WDLive you might be able to get them to remove the one instance running to allow multiple clients running on the same machine. They removed that ability when they came out with there own client.

Thoughts?

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Do you guys remember the FIRST Hauppauge MVP extender software written by a user. It used a client instance on the base computer that the MVP connected to and streamed to the MVP from there. This was before Sage made their OWN client for the MVP. If we could do something like this with the new HD MVP or the WDLive you might be able to get them to remove the one instance running to allow multiple clients running on the same machine. They removed that ability when they came out with there own client.

Thoughts?

Those also required a client license which we can't get anymore

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Do you guys remember the FIRST Hauppauge MVP extender software written by a user. It used a client instance on the base computer that the MVP connected to and streamed to the MVP from there. This was before Sage made their OWN client for the MVP. If we could do something like this with the new HD MVP or the WDLive you might be able to get them to remove the one instance running to allow multiple clients running on the same machine. They removed that ability when they came out with there own client.

Thoughts?

The difference there I have read is that the MediaMVP downloaded the software it ran from your server ... This is how it worked by default, a MediaMVP without some software to boot from will not work. Sage just took over the role of providing the unit with software to run. Apparently most (all?) current extenders now boot up off there own internal software. So that's out.

and what PluckHD said

[Biggen]

Awesome post! I hope you have the time to keep things updated as they change in the upcoming weeks...

[wrems]

So, if one has a MVP can that license be used on a regular PC client? Or, are they somehow different? I have an MVP that's been collecting dust I'd love to recycle that license if I could...

[Evil_Attorney]

Not sure if you guys were aware of this but:

For those who may have missed the previous post, Sigma Designs announced last week that they have begun work on porting XBMC to run on their next-generation SOCs, and showed off their nascent project at the 2011 CES. After meeting with a few Sigma employees, I wanted to give more detail into what is going on.

Link

Maybe we should be focusing on an XBMC plugin that will connect to Sage?

[Fuzzy]

This is one reason I had wished years ago for sage to open up the placeshifter protocols. It would have provided the ability for others to create compatible hardware/mobile clients, with the same look/feel as the core product. Because the placeshifter licenses are server side, it wouldn't have affected licensing sales either. That said, it might have cut into the actual hardware sales.. maybe.. I'm not really sure on that either, I'm betting it would have first been used on mobile devices.

There IS still a rendering API from the good-ol days that might work, but AFAIK, it basically redirects the server based UI to the remote renderer. Would work okay for a single device, if you have a headless server, but that is all. I don't think it was every used for anything other than the very first MediaMVP capabilities, and I think the PVR-350's output.

EDIT: The applicable API's for remoting the server's UI (or a client, technically) to another device would be:
Media Playback: http://www.sagetv.com/2_papers/MediaPlayerPlugins.txt
OSD Rendering: http://www.sagetv.com/2_papers/OSDPlugins.txt
Input: http://www.sagetv.com/2_papers/SageTVInputPlugins.txt

If someone could proxy those API's in a meaningful way to the remote device, it would probably work good enough.

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by wrems

So, if one has a MVP can that license be used on a regular PC client? Or, are they somehow different? I have an MVP that's been collecting dust I'd love to recycle that license if I could...

MVP uses a placeshifter license, not a client license. And I wasn't around in the early days but I think once upon a time there was a special mvp license?

[wrems]

So I can recycle my MVP license for a PS one? That's not too bad. I guess my purchasing another PS license a couple of months ago was a waste... I'll have to dig out my actual papers on the MVP license...

[Fuzzy]

MVP and placeshifter licenses were sold as different items in the store, but they were the same license, and completely interchangeable.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

Those also required a client license which we can't get anymore

Correct but if you had a single license and the client would let you run multiple instances on the same PC you could connect up multiple WDLives. One to each client instance running on the Server - that is how I ran the 2 MVPs I had until Sage made their client and removed the multiple instances in V4.1. So if you had no clients you would be out of luck. But with a single license you would then be able to wire your whole house with players.

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

The difference there I have read is that the MediaMVP downloaded the software it ran from your server ... This is how it worked by default, a MediaMVP without some software to boot from will not work. Sage just took over the role of providing the unit with software to run. Apparently most (all?) current extenders now boot up off there own internal software. So that's out.

and what PluckHD said

Correct. But here is my idea.

First somehow get the GUI to the box not sure how that was done with the MVP plugin and this would likely be the most difficult part. But assuming that could be done - the added software on the WDLive would accept play commands from the client on the PC. It would be sent the path to the Video file and proceed to play it with it's built in routines in the firmware. But like I just said getting the GUI to the unit would likely be the impossible part.

[bits]

Sage is dead...live with it!

[phareous]

Originally Posted by bits

Sage is dead...live with it!

oh that's so helpful

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

But like I just said getting the GUI to the unit would likely be the impossible part.

This is what the OSD plugin is for that I listed a few posts up. This is how the original MVP plugin worked, and how the PVR-350's output worked. It is pretty simple, in that it basically makes a call to the plugin whenever it needs to update the screen (or part of the screen), sending the bitmap for the update. Obviously, wouldn't be as optimized as the purpose built protocol the hd extenders use.. but it's possible... which is a step in the right direction.

[MitchSchaft]

Helpful or not, it's the obvious truth. Google is not going to develop Sage and you know it.