IT seems awfully quiet in the beta department... until now

[mkanet]

I'll check out Geektonic's article. I just saw the blurb on Hulu via HD-200's and sageTV; which sounds nice.

The idea of a server on a stick doesnt make much sense to me. If I tell someone to go to their local PC store and pick up a computer with this stick, I'm sure they'll want to know why they cant use the PC for anything but sage; especially if they paid for the OS on the PC. I dont think you can even buy a new PC without an OS. I dont know... Im sure this might seem like a much more useful product to someone else.

Originally Posted by paulbeers

You must not have ready the interview on Geektonic. Basically the Server-on-a-stick is a USB drive that will have linux and Sage installed on it so that you can plug it into any computer (that boots to USB) and instantly have Sage up and running (sure you still have to do the location specific setups via the gui). The idea is that ANYONE could run a Sage setup with very little computer knowledge. Imagine telling someone they can go to their local PC store, pick up a computer, maybe a couple of USB tuners, and just plug this stick in and they are ready to roll with Sage! For those of us using Sage currently, it doesn't do us much good except that if Sage becomes more broadly adopted, then there will be more money for developmemt.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Basically the Server-on-a-stick is a USB drive that will have linux and Sage installed on it so that you can plug it into any computer (that boots to USB) and instantly have Sage up and running (sure you still have to do the location specific setups via the gui). The idea is that ANYONE could run a Sage setup with very little computer knowledge. Imagine telling someone they can go to their local PC store, pick up a computer, maybe a couple of USB tuners, and just plug this stick in and they are ready to roll with Sage!

There's probably no use in drudging this up again, but I'm still not convinced server-on-a-stick really helps that much. What we basically have now is someone can go to a store, buy a windows PC and USB tuners, install tuner drivers, and install Sage. Then you're at the same point as the server-on-a-stick, where the software is all there, but you have to configure it. I'm still convinced that configuring Sage is much more difficult than installing drivers and the Sage software.

I suspect Sage knows this. I think they're trying to incorporate features in the server-on-a-stick that make configuration easier. But, I'm not really sure how far that can go. QAM channel remapping is a big pain, unless you can use SiliconDust's database. Setting up an STB is a bit of a pain, especially so for multiple STBs. I think Sage is planning to include some sort of new firewire driver to help with channel changing, but 1) a lot of PCs don't have firewire, and 2) a lot of STBs don't have working firewire. USB-UIRT is a bit more of a universal option. Would they build-in support for multi-zone USB-UIRTs and setting USB-UIRT kits with extra IR transmitters?

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by mkanet

Cablecard support? I dont think that's what they are working on right now. Something REALLY big would have to change in the technology world for that to happen; which I'm sure we would hear about in the news. .

i thought that a couple of companies were coming out with cablecard plugs for windows that handled all the drm and new bios in windows7 (in the last week or 2) enabled these to work without the previous onerous h/w restrictions..................if that were true, then sage would only have to tune the channels and not do any DRM stuff......i think there is a thread on the forum with klugy (but working!) method of interfacing this windows capability with a sage plugin/customization...........my thinking was that eventually it would/could be an integrated/supported sage tuner

if so, we could replace STB/hdpvr with in-PC cablecards (i.e. less money to FIOS, more to spend on sage hd300 boxes)

on the other hand, if i am not interpreting this correctly ----never mind!

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by cat6man

i thought that a couple of companies were coming out with cablecard plugs for windows that handled all the drm and new bios in windows7 (in the last week or 2) enabled these to work without the previous onerous h/w restrictions..................if that were true, then sage would only have to tune the channels and not do any DRM stuff......i think there is a thread on the forum with klugy (but working!) method of interfacing this windows capability with a sage plugin/customization...........my thinking was that eventually it would/could be an integrated/supported sage tuner

Basically, DRMed videos come out of the CableCards (if that channel/program has been marked for copy protection by cable companies, otherwise its DRM-free). The problem is, Sage can't play back DRMed video. They could probably get it working on software clients, but not the extenders. And even then, I'm not sure how much money they'd have to pay to implement the DRM and get whatever approval (if any) is necessary to directly access the cablecard tuner driver (the hack involves tricking Windows Media Center do to that for you).

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Basically, DRMed videos come out of the CableCards (if that channel/program has been marked for copy protection by cable companies, otherwise its DRM-free). The problem is, Sage can't play back DRMed video. They could probably get it working on software clients, but not the extenders. And even then, I'm not sure how much money they'd have to pay to implement the DRM and get whatever approval (if any) is necessary to directly access the cablecard tuner driver (the hack involves tricking Windows Media Center do to that for you).

got it...........thanks for the explanation............have to go downstairs and comfort/pet my hdpvrs ("nice box, i really wasn't going to send you away............")

[Brent]

Originally Posted by cat6man

got it...........thanks for the explanation............have to go downstairs and comfort/pet my hdpvrs ("nice box, i really wasn't going to send you away............")

And I have one of those HDFury2's still in its packaging for a rainy day as well. Hope I'm never forced into using it...

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by reggie14

There's probably no use in drudging this up again, but I'm still not convinced server-on-a-stick really helps that much.

My very uniformed guess is that the SOS is going to go with a Sage branded NAS type CE device that runs it. Think the HD200 version of a Sage Server. The default STV has some mysterious, hidden, Linux only functionality that seems to point in this direction (RAID configuration in the setup wizard?).

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

My very uniformed guess is that the SOS is going to go with a Sage branded NAS type CE device that runs it. Think the HD200 version of a Sage Server. The default STV has some mysterious, hidden, Linux only functionality that seems to point in this direction (RAID configuration in the setup wizard?).

That interesting, although I can't say I'm completely surprised. I'm still a little skeptical about the whole idea. Again, I don't think installation is very hard. It's the configuration that's hard. A single hardware/software platform could help with reliability, but maybe not. Take the HD-PVR for example. I'm not convinced a single hardware platform would significantly improve reliability, since I think some of those problems are related to the STB being used, for example.

I think there might be greater advantages if Sage could offer real-time technical support to guide people through configuration, but I don't see that happening. Plus, I just don't really see non-geeks using something like Sage, and I don't think a server-on-a-stick would convince that many geeks to move to Sage.

Time will tell, I suppose. I think we'll see a server-on-a-stick product (and/or a server-branded CE device) at some point in the not too terribly distant future.

[wado1971]

Originally Posted by evilpenguin

My very uniformed guess is that the SOS is going to go with a Sage branded NAS type CE device that runs it.

Exactly (CE w/ NAS), tuner option, & automatic update. Then I'd immediately buy the SOS & an HD200 for a family member for xmas. I would have done it years ago but I was terrified of the tech supports I'd incur. I'd also have no hesitation suggesting SageTV to others - just direct them to the SageTV site for one stop shopping, buy the SOS device with your tuner & HDD options, & an HD200.

Originally Posted by reggie14

.......Plus, I just don't really see non-geeks using something like Sage, and I don't think a server-on-a-stick would convince that many geeks to move to Sage.

Why not, Non-geeks love tivo & cable supplied pvr's. Non-geeks also have tons of pictures, home video, & music which they would love to bring out into the living room environment.
I believe this is not a move for SageTV to adapt more geeks but branch out to the general consumer who loves gadgets. That's a much larger market to target.

If the new beta cycle doesn't target the SOS, I'll then be satisfied with a full UI overhaul

[Fuzzy]

I also think S-O-S adds a bit of an ability for 3rd party system builders to market the hardware side of it. Stripped down systems, with some built on tuner support (at least ATSC/QAM). A headless atom based system, with a compartment to hold the SOS, and a dual ATSC/QAM tuner, plus an HD-200, would be a perfect SageTV Starter kit. Extremely easy to set up, capable, and still expandable (external storage upgrades, external tuners, etc).

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I also think S-O-S adds a bit of an ability for 3rd party system builders to market the hardware side of it.

Wasn't that the whole idea of the Linux version of Sage?

I just don't think there's a wider market for SageTV beyond fairly die-hard enthusiasts. TiVo is barely making it in the CE market.

In addition, TiVo has hardware support Sage doesn't (cablecard) and a technical/customer support infrastructure Sage can't match either. Without working closer with cable companies (namely cablecard support), SageTV setups (except for OTA setups) will always be a little hacked together. Customers would have to worry about QAM channels moving, or the reliability of STB/blaster setups. I'm not saying Sage is terribly difficult to use, or particularly unreliable, just that the sorts of setups we have aren't things the vast majority of the general public would be willing to put up with, at least not without a more extensive support infrastructure.

I think there's room for Sage to grow, but I don't think its going to gain much of any traction with the general public. I think the only way to do that in the current environment is to market products with hardware manufacturers directly to cable companies and satellite services.

[Fuzzy]

Certainly not pointing at the 'general public'. It's more just a matter of solidifying a setup, to minimize problems. It's the little problems that discourage even some of the geeks who give it a try. These little problems are the majority of the posts on this board. I single, solidified 'firmware' among the servers would considerably reduce the occurrence of those issues.

It would also be a huge boon to be able to basically move ALL configuration that most users need (including OS level configuration) into the sage interface. No remoting into WHS to configure drivers, etc. It'd basically entail purchasing the specialized hardware, and an HD-200. Hook them each up anywhere on the LAN, turn on the server... turn on the HD200. It finds it, and you start configuring the device (including partitioning storage drives, everything, from the setup wizard on the extender). I know many in my family love using my sagetv, but don't have the motivation to go through the 'computer building' aspect of it (including installing OS's, etc). This would eliminate a lot of their concerns, and ease their adoption. Sage, still, isn't for everyone, but this would allow the 'not-afraid-of-new-tech-but-not-geeks' crowd in.

[cncb]

Given all this time they are really setting my expectations high for the next beta.

[maninblack_30]

Originally Posted by cncb

Given all this time they are really setting my expectations high for the next beta.

I wonder when...........

[wayner]

I was just thinking again today that it continues to be very quiet. Expectations keep growing and growing...

Either that or the Sage Developers have been hanging with Tiger Woods and have been busy doing other things.

[tpboyce]

I think alot of effortis being put into the Server on a stick, if not an actuall server. They have shown what they can do with what appear to be a small team on th HD-200. I know alot of people were restless (including myself) in that gap between the original extennder and the 200. They have done an excellent job in this area where Microsoft and it's partners failed not once, but twice. I am playing with the Linux version that is publicly available and have run across some evidence of good things to come if my interpretation of the findings is wha I think it is. For alot of us, it will likely mean nothing, as it will duplicate what we already have. But for the newcomer, or setting up a system for your neighbor, they should be good things. I am excited to see if what I think is comming actually does.

I have looked at becoming a Niveus and S1Digital dealer (could be an S1 dealer if I bought the demo system), and even a Fire LinuxMCE dealer. The former did not represent a value that I thought I could sell, with their shortcommings. With some tweaking, I certainly feel there is a market for selling a solution with a server and the HD-200s.

I hope that the Sage team enjoys their Holidays and delivers something in January. I know the server on a sick is probably hard to Beta, but I would make a sacrfice to do it. I extra hardware available, and would even purchase their prescribed hardware if necessary.

[LehighBri]

I would assume things will continue to be quiet for some time, but perhaps some new information/demos will start to trickle out during CES in early Jan next year?

[wayner]

While the server on a stick has some merit, I still wonder if it will simplify things all that much. In this day and age people want everything in HD. Sage is the best solution for that but when you start throwing in additional hardware like HD-PVRs, cable boxes, IR blasters, firewire channel change then the system gets very complex with more points of failure.

Even making the SageTV installation totally idiot proof isn't going to help that much when you throw all of this other stuff into the mix.

This is also a bit of a risk as I would argue that the market for a simple server on a stick is a bit of a different market from the HTPC-enthusiast that has been the target market for Sage. The less-sophisticated market is certaily larger but are they interested in this? If they want to use their PC as a PVR then why wouldn't they just use Win Media Center which is (likely) already on their PC and looks much sexier?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by wayner

While the server on a stick has some merit, I still wonder if it will simplify things all that much. In this day and age people want everything in HD. Sage is the best solution for that but when you start throwing in additional hardware like HD-PVRs, cable boxes, IR blasters, firewire channel change then the system gets very complex with more points of failure.

I completely agree. And those things all make server configuration more difficult. Server-on-a-stick helps a lot with taking away the need to do OS/driver/application installations, but probably won't be able to simplify configuration nearly as much. Configuration and standard maintenance (fixing stuff when they break), in my mind, are the really tricky things.

This is also a bit of a risk as I would argue that the market for a simple server on a stick is a bit of a different market from the HTPC-enthusiast that has been the target market for Sage. The less-sophisticated market is certaily larger but are they interested in this? If they want to use their PC as a PVR then why wouldn't they just use Win Media Center which is (likely) already on their PC and looks much sexier?

A lot of people probably don't remember this, but Sage briefly tried to enter the market of providing preconfigured SageTV servers many years ago. I think this was part of their SageTV v3 plan, which is when they added extender support (MediaMVP) and I think when they came out with the Linux version. Sage asked if anyone was interested in testing the server hardware, but I don't know how far they got before they pulled the plug on that project. I don't see server-on-a-stick being much more successful.

[tmiranda]

I'm not sure I agree. With SOS it becomes a lot easier to offer preconfigured hardware. You could have a base system and then choose options such as tuners and drive size. It wouldn't take long to assemble and test those systems.

The two biggest complaints with Sage are it's hard to setup and the GUI is not flashy. With SOS and some preconfigured systems you could solve issue 1. Let the buyer select the hardware and also indicate how they will be capturing and what ZIP code you could even ship the systems totally preconfigured for EPG data. Just unpack, plug it in and you're good to go.