An open letter to SageTV and Hauppauge management

[jack_leach]

If you've been following the forum here, you certainly know by now that there are MANY compatibility issues between SageTV and the Hauppauge HD-PVR. SageTV works pretty well without the HD-PVR, and the HD-PVR apparently works OK in some non-SageTV applications, but put the two together and you have a never ending nightmare. I have spent HUNDREDS of hours on this forum trying to resolve these issues and I have tried a dozen or more different suggestions but I have had little success.

At this point I now have two HD-PVR's with the following "suggestions" implemented:

- HD-PVR's standing on edge to provide better cooling.
- IR ports blacked out with tape
- timer on HD-PVR's to automatically cycle power daily
- using USB-UIRT because of problems with Hauppauge IR blaster
- AC3 surround sound disabled

All this and more, and I'm STILL having numerous problems like:

- HD-PVR locks up and refuses to record
- Channel changing stops and requires restart of SageTV and/or HD-PVR
- Programs record that I didn't program
- Programs don't record that I DID program
- Audio distortion

It's obvious from the numerous postings here that my experience is not unique and that there are many others with similar problems. The postings here also indicate (and I tend to agree) that the problems are largely the fault of the HD-PVR and that Hauppauge is unwilling or unable to work with SageTV to resolve these issues. And both companies are guilty of maintaining a public position that their product is OK, instead of doing the right thing and acknowledging that the problems exist and assuring customers that "we're working on it".

I now have $3000 invested in what was supposed to be a high-definition video server and it now looks like I wasted all that money (and time!!!). SageTV and Hauppauge have a lot at stake here. Acknowledge the problems and work together to resolve them and you win. Continue to ignore the problems and you both lose (remember that potential future customers will be reading this forum to help them make a purchase decision).

Your response to this post (or lack of a response) will be a major indicator of your commitment to these problems. I encourage other forum members to weigh in here. Thanks!

[PLUCKYHD]

To each his own I guess. I have installed 2 of these things for a client. (but I read the forums before buying as did you I am sure so I new what we were getting into.)

That being said using 2 channel audio and firewire for channel changing has been working 100% of the time. You have to remember you don't here from the people that don't have problems near as much as the people that do on these forums or anywhere.

That being said I agree they still have major hurdles to overcome but remember this is still new tech I know it has been out a year now but you are still on the bleeding edge.

[bcjenkins]

I will weigh in with my experiences:

The HDPVR has worked flawlessly for me on Linux using:

1) 720P output hard-set on the FiOS 6200.
2) Analog audio out (2 channel RCA connectors) 5.1 caused issues
3) IR Blasting handled by external device. (Linux drivers don't support this yet)

I guess the moral of this is; a first generation device will have issues (unfortunately) and Hauppauge has been rather silent on their efforts to correct. SageTV has been making changes to its software to enable the HDPVR to work better, but there are still fundamental issues with the device's firmware.

All in all though, I agree with your post. Silence on problems isn't the right way to handle the situation. Hauppauge needs to take care of its early adopters because they drive sales.

B

PS - I would encourage you to think about using Linux for the server. The developer responsible for the driver has proven himself to be very responsive and makes changes regularly. FWIW - SageTV's Linux dev has also contributed to the development of the driver as well. (Upcoming IR blaster support)

PPS - If you don't have your resolution hard set on output from your STB, consider doing so. I have heard of issues for people when the broadcast goes from HD to SD at commercial points or transmission issues.

[Ender]

Originally Posted by jack_leach

And both companies are guilty of maintaining a public position that their product is OK, instead of doing the right thing and acknowledging that the problems exist and assuring customers that "we're working on it".

Being that Sage is an optional third party application that just happens to support the HD-PVR, Hauppauge is not obligated at all to ensure that this product works with Sage in any fashion whatsoever. It is just a good thing for us that there is interoperability.

That being said, I have had an HD-PVR for six months now, and it has worked well. The only crashes I have had, have been either user error, one of the component cables being pulled out by a careless cat, or the result of other outside forces (bad video card) etc. Now I use analog audio, fixed 1080i output, and firewire channel changing.

The only missed, or wrong recordings have been a result of my cable box going into standby at night...

The only gripes I have at this time that Hauppague support is "working" on that has frustrated me are as follows:

1) Happauge remote does not work if an optical cable is used for audio.
2) If multiple Hauppauge devices are installed in a system, one needs to guess which IR sensor is in use.

It is unfortunate you are having major issues, but from what i can tell many of us are using these devices with little or no error.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by jack_leach

Your response to this post (or lack of a response) will be a major indicator of your commitment to these problems.

A lack of response to this post by Hauppauge management may indicate nothing more than that they're not in the habit of looking in the SageTV forums for complaints about Hauppauge products.

As for SageTV management, forum policy is pretty clear that if you require a response, you should submit a request through the support channel. Have you? You mentioned the hours you've spent reading the forums and trying suggestions posted here. But I see nothing in this post about your attempts (if any) to work through these issues with SageTV tech support.

[gplasky]

I have one of the original models (C1) running on my WHS machine and do not have these issues. ( I do use the USB-UIRT for channel changing because I had one) I run the latest drivers and use SPDIF for the audio. What I think you have failed to do is some in depth research because you would need to post this open letter on the Arcsoft forums, the Elegato forums and various other forums that Hauppauge doesn't list as 3rd party applications. Did you know the IR blaster doesn't even work with the Elegato and Mac? Stuttering, audio sync and other issues are reported across the board. BeyondTV, GB-PVR, report similar issues and even with the Windows Media Center and DVBSBridge workaround to get the HD-PVR working with WMC similar issues have also been reported.

I think there is only so much that SageTV can do because they have to work with the driver support provided by Hauppauge. If SageTV was the only application having these issues it would be one thing but there isn't a third party product out there that can work with the HD-PVR that doesn't have eome of these same issues.

Gerry

[bcjenkins]

Actually IR blasting on Mac should work with this: http://www.steventoth.net/blog/products/hdpvr-capture/

[jack_leach]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I see nothing in this post about your attempts (if any) to work through these issues with SageTV tech support.

You make a good point here, but I've seen so many posts with similar problems and people who HAVE reported the problems (without success) that I have resorted to a different approach, i.e. this thread.

Thanks for your comments (and others here).

Jack

[stanger89]

This thread will accomplish absolutely nothing because this is not an official support forum for either SageTV or Hauppauge.

As far as contacting support, they quickly gave me something to try that solved all my issues, and have since incorporated that as a default setting in SageTV. My only remaining problem is I have to manually power cycle my HD PVR if the server is powered off. But since mine runs 24/7 and is on a UPS, that's not something it's worth tracking down for me.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

This thread will accomplish absolutely nothing because this is not an official support forum for either SageTV or Hauppauge.

You could say that with any complaints on user forums. But, I think there's plenty of reasons to think complaints on user forums do accomplish something. First, we know Sage does monitor these threads to some extent. Second, it helps to complain publicly as its really the only way to call wider attention to an issue. I'm not saying Sage or Hauppauge are doing this, but it's awfully easy for a company to respond to a complaint by either saying they're working on it, or that is is a very uncommon problem and there must be some other problem responsible for the issue.

Now, for the most part I agree this thread won't accomplish anything. This is too niche of a audience, and we've already seen threads like this. If you really want to call attention to something like this it would probably work better to start a thread at AVSforum and try to get Sage/Myth/BeyondTV users all there complaining. If it actually gets attention Hauppauge would probably find it themselves. It probably wouldn't though.

The HD-PVR certainly seems pretty buggy to me. It seems like a significant number of people that are even using it successfully have done various workarounds (e.g., setting a constant resolution, or using analog audio instead of digital). I kind of think it will stay a little on the buggy side until there's an alternative. The HD-PVR is really the only player out there. In the meantime, I'm enjoying the fact that I can get all my HD channels via firewire except for HBO/Showtime and the History Channel.

[GKusnick]

Public complaints can be effective in drawing attention to common problems. However they're no substitute for an actual tech support ticket. Without an expert diagnosis from Support, how can you be sure that your problem is really identical to someone else's? What if your specific case holds the missing puzzle piece that could solve the problem for everyone?

As far as I can see, there's no upside to keeping Support in the dark about the particulars of your case. Any solution they come up with will be driven by the bug report data they have in hand. Why wouldn't you want your data to be part of that process?

[Wheemer]

How come you never see proactive measurements by support? Like if this problem is so large and common, maybe they should be going out and recruiting customers that see the issue. Why is it always us that has to do the leg work?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

How come you never see proactive measurements by support? Like if this problem is so large and common, maybe they should be going out and recruiting customers that see the issue. Why is it always us that has to do the leg work?

I wasn't going to bother logging onto the forum until later tonight, but that post got me... you're kidding, right?

I repeatedly tried to recruit people to run special debug versions that might be able to provide some more logging info about the problem... care to guess how many people followed up? I gave up trying to get people to contact SageTV for further debug logging to see if it were possible to find out what was happening. Who knows, though, maybe someone has done so since I quit asking and I just haven't heard about it.

And, there is a sticky in this forum pointing people to new HD-PVR drivers from Hauppauge -- I posted that within a few hours of Hauppauge telling SageTV that those drivers were being made public. I would be curious to hear how many people who have updated to those drivers still have problems with their HD-PVR(s) locking. And, if you haven't installed those new drivers & are having issues, what are you waiting for?


As for the original question about whether SageTV will give an official response to this thread... sure: as usual, update to the drivers that Hauppauge has already released and contact support if you still have problems. Other than that, this is a user-to-user forum which is not monitored by support, as is stated in several places.

- Andy

[sandor]

Originally Posted by Wheemer

How come you never see proactive measurements by support? Like if this problem is so large and common, maybe they should be going out and recruiting customers that see the issue. Why is it always us that has to do the leg work?

because, most likely, the problem isnt as far spread as you think.

support forums *always* tend to have a disproportionate amount of people *with problems*.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

You could say that with any complaints on user forums. But, I think there's plenty of reasons to think complaints on user forums do accomplish something. First, we know Sage does monitor these threads to some extent. Second, it helps to complain publicly as its really the only way to call wider attention to an issue. I'm not saying Sage or Hauppauge are doing this, but it's awfully easy for a company to respond to a complaint by either saying they're working on it, or that is is a very uncommon problem and there must be some other problem responsible for the issue.

Now, for the most part I agree this thread won't accomplish anything.

That's basically my point. Threads "like" this can help if the problem is going ignored by the parties involved. Bad PR can force action. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Hauppauge is RMAing units for people having problems, rolling new hardware versions, new drivers. Sage answers support inquiries and incorporates fixes as they find them. So it doesn't appear this is the type of case where action can be forced, considing action is taking place, if not as fast as we might want.

I think the best way to "force" action, especialy when the parties involved are interested in finding solutions (as Sage and Hauppage apparently are), is to make sure you report your issues to them, so that they are aware of them and can fill in the missing pieces as it were.

Originally Posted by Wheemer

How come you never see proactive measurements by support? Like if this problem is so large and common, maybe they should be going out and recruiting customers that see the issue. Why is it always us that has to do the leg work?

All too often it's because support doesn't know about the issues.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by jack_leach

At this point I now have two HD-PVR's with the following "suggestions" implemented:

- HD-PVR's standing on edge to provide better cooling.
- IR ports blacked out with tape
- timer on HD-PVR's to automatically cycle power daily
- using USB-UIRT because of problems with Hauppauge IR blaster
- AC3 surround sound disabled

My C2 unit works as expected, delivering encrypted HD to SageTV. And I didn't have to do any of those "suggestions". And I never once updated the drivers or power cycled it. It has been running non stop since probably August last year.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by Opus4

And, there is a sticky in this forum pointing people to new HD-PVR drivers from Hauppauge -- I posted that within a few hours of Hauppauge telling SageTV that those drivers were being made public. I would be curious to hear how many people who have updated to those drivers still have problems with their HD-PVR(s) locking. And, if you haven't installed those new drivers & are having issues, what are you waiting for?

As for the original question about whether SageTV will give an official response to this thread... sure: as usual, update to the drivers that Hauppauge has already released and contact support if you still have problems.
- Andy

As anyone who has been reading the HD-PVR "complaint" threads knows, I'm one of the folks with problems

I haven't bothered to submit a bug report re: HD-PVR lock-ups to Sage in a long, long time, because it sure seems like a hardware problem and therefore pointless to bug Sage. However, it sounds like the Sage team is receptive to that and trying to track down issues, which I appreciate and will take advantage of.

I would be thrilled to work with Sage/send logs or whatever is needed, just let me know, or wait until I get a bug report in. I am just in the process of switching over to Dish network (installed but I need enough "Noggin" shows stored up for my daughter before I can pull the plug on Comcast), and while that doesn't seem likely to fix the problem, you never know (multiple PCs and OSes haven't helped so far), so I'll wait for a lockup there first.

Beyond that, I have heard many times that the 2-channel analog-only sound doesn't cause lock-ups... I hate to give up the DD 5.1 sound though if its avoidable. Can anyone verify they are using the DD5.1 without issues?

Thanks,
-Chris

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

My C2 unit works as expected, delivering encrypted HD to SageTV. And I didn't have to do any of those "suggestions". And I never once updated the drivers or power cycled it. It has been running non stop since probably August last year.

So, are you claiming that the HD-PVR doesn't have fairly widespread issues? About a month ago you said:

use analog for audio, the digital optical audio give lots of people headaches so I assume it is not working even with the latest driver.

And, based on your sig, you're using firewire channel changing too, as opposed to the Happauge IR blaster (which, by the way, I've used for 8 months without any issues). So, you're not really using all the advertised features of the HD-PVR.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by Wheemer
How come you never see proactive measurements by support? Like if this problem is so large and common, maybe they should be going out and recruiting customers that see the issue. Why is it always us that has to do the leg work?

Sage has been pretty pro-active re the HD-PVR. Read through the following thread:

showthread.php?t=34506

I personally had all kinds of issues with my HD-PVRs and sent in logs to techsup as others did. Sage did some tweeking software wise while we all waited for an updated driver (seemed like an eternity) from Hauppauge.

The first driver update from Hauppauge with daily scheluled shutdown/reboots and finding best combo of USB ports worked out for me. I've been using DD5.1 since the first driver release supporting that as well. I havn't had any problems since finding the right ju-ju.

I agree with those here who have commented that Hauppauge bears the burden.

And I feel the pain of those who have not got the right ju-ju yet.

[Wheemer]

My comments where not specific to this actual issue, and they were not directed toward SageTV solely. Glad to have inspired passion (hit a nerve?) in you though Opus, no kidding. To me it seems obvious that Hauppauge is the one to point fingers at. I understand there is only so much Sage can do when there is inherent hardware/driver issues.

I've wanted to purchase an HD-PVR a few times now, but I've been waiting to see all it's issues fixed. It seems like after the product has been out so long they should have things working. I guess not...