Totally Confused Concerning SageTV for Windows Home Server(WHS) - Please Help!

[Joe Mac]

Hello SageTV sages!

I've read all over the forum, downloaded and read the 263 page SageTV User's Manual - but I am still (somewhat unbelievably) greatly confused on a number of issues.

The User's Manual makes no mention of the SageTV for Windows Home Server version of the software, no can I find a separate User's Manual. Is this because there is funtionally no difference between it and SageTV Media Center once installed?

I sure hope y'all can help me without losing patience!

1. I've downloaded and installed the SageTV for WHS Trial on a "practice" WHS machine, however, I can NOT find the full WHS version for purchase in the Store. The WHS version has an .msi extension vice .exe and must be installed via the WHS "plug-in" folder. Does SageTV Media Center 6.3 also include a WHS .msi version and license?

2. My WHS machine will not have a TV Tuner, as comercial WHS machines are designed to be more of an "appliance" and "digital storage center" rather than a traditional computer. Unfortunately, I've read in the forums that having the tuner for recording in a client computer does not work very well when saving those recordings to the Server, which of course is what it's for. I've read that recordings in this scenario are much degraded. Would it help to have SageTV Media Center itself on the recording computer instead of just a Client version? Would that require two full licenses?

Do I just need to resign myself to manually copying each recording to the Server for storage once the HTPC with the tuner has done its job?

Thanks so much for taking the time to read all of this. Believe it or not, I have a bunch more questions, but need to post them in the appropriate forums (how to control dual tuners to record a different station without changing both cable box channels, USBIART, etc.)

Sure hope I can figure all of this out... with y'alls help I bet I can!

Thanks again,

Joe Mac

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Joe Mac

Hello SageTV sages!

I've read all over the forum, downloaded and read the 263 page SageTV User's Manual - but I am still (somewhat unbelievably) greatly confused on a number of issues.

The User's Manual makes no mention of the SageTV for Windows Home Server version of the software, no can I find a separate User's Manual. Is this because there is funtionally no difference between it and SageTV Media Center once installed?

Once installed they are functionally identical as far as I know.

I sure hope y'all can help me without losing patience!

1. I've downloaded and installed the SageTV for WHS Trial on a "practice" WHS machine, however, I can NOT find the full WHS version for purchase in the Store. The WHS version has an .msi extension vice .exe and must be installed via the WHS "plug-in" folder. Does SageTV Media Center 6.3 also include a WHS .msi version and license?

The SageTV license can be used for either the "standard" PC or WHS version.

2. My WHS machine will not have a TV Tuner, as comercial WHS machines are designed to be more of an "appliance" and "digital storage center" rather than a traditional computer. Unfortunately, I've read in the forums that having the tuner for recording in a client computer does not work very well when saving those recordings to the Server, which of course is what it's for. I've read that recordings in this scenario are much degraded. Would it help to have SageTV Media Center itself on the recording computer instead of just a Client version? Would that require two full licenses?

Frankly, if you're going to have the tuners and the UI on the "client" machine, I don't see a point to running SageTV on WHS. The point of running SageTV on WHS is to isolate the backend functionality (ie recording) to the WHS box that nobody messes with. Yes you can run Sage on WHS, and then another copy of SageTV Media Center on another machine as an encoding server and it will work fine, but that's kind of pointless IMO since the WHS version would be useless without the encoding server running on the other PC.

I have SageTV and all my tuners in my server (Windows 2003 Server), and my various clients connect to that.

I think the comments you see are regarding using an network encoder are in regards to (unfounded IMO) concerns over wasting network bandwidth. Network encoders work fine.

Do I just need to resign myself to manually copying each recording to the Server for storage once the HTPC with the tuner has done its job?

Why not just install your tuners in the WHS machine? I think that's what most running WHS here are doing.

[GKusnick]

To turn it around, if you're dead set on having the tuners elsewhere and using the WHS machine as a file server only, install Sage on the machine with the tuners and configure it to store recordings on the WHS box. Your recording directories can be on any accessible network share; they don't have to be local to the machine with the tuners.

That said, I agree with Stanger that it seems like a waste of a good server not to use it as the recording engine and use the client machine just for playback.

[sleonard]

Originally Posted by Joe Mac

2. My WHS machine will not have a TV Tuner, as comercial WHS machines are designed to be more of an "appliance" and "digital storage center" rather than a traditional computer.

I don't know why you would think this. There's no reason an "appliance" can't have tuners, a Sage server is essentially a "digital storage center" for TV recordings, and SageTV either for WHS or not is designed to be on the PC that has the tuners.

Just put your tuners in the WHS box, install SageTV and be done with it.

S

[Joe Mac]

Sleornard-

I don't know why you would think this.

- Sleornard

Hmmm. Perhaps because none of the machines specifically built for and pre-loaded with WHS on the market, such as the HP MediaSmart, even have an IDE port inside in order to support a tuner. Neither do they have PS/2 mouse or keyboard ports. Only one that I know of has a video port for a monitor, which is contrary to Microsoft's requested specs.

This is because they are built to be "headless" and only remotely accessed and configured via the Home Server Console.

I did not mean to "rock any boats" here as to what is or is not a server or its uses. My quotes about commercial WHS machines being "appliances" and "digital storage centers" vice more robustly configurable and expandable computer products were exactly that - quotes from reviewers of these products.

I do realize that SageTV is designed to record and store recorded TV and that is why I was asking for help in figuring this out.

If I could have:

Just put your tuners in the WHS box, install SageTV and be done with it.

...I would not have sought another solution.

Stranger and GKusnick-

Thank you for your quick and thoughtful replies!

- I thought that I may have needed Sage on the WHS Server to stream from it to the HD 100 media extender that I was waiting to buy when they got their next shipment. I too think it would be a waste of a good server! I was and still am a little confused why Sage would make the Server software for systems that can not have an internal tuner.

Perhaps they are looking ahead and know that vendors will be offering machines with built-in tuners (or available IDE ports for user customization) in the future.

- The thought of having the Server out of sight, "out of sound" and out of the living room was another reason for it not to be the actual "DVR". The HTPC that I am almost finished building is perfectly silent, but will not have much capacity for storage.

- Its good to know that saving recorded TV to a networked drive is do-able without degradation and that the issues I've read about are probably warrantless and most likely predicated on bandwidth concerns - thanks.

Hey, if I knew that you had to have an IQ to set up a Sage system, I would have just got a Tivo!

I'm not feeling the "love of a newbie" from a long time SageTV expert, which makes me hesitant to go forward with the project, because I know I'll need alot of help and patience from the members this forum as I alluded to. A pre-built solution may be the best way for me to go for all of us!

Thanks again to those who took the time to help.

Joe Mac

[dflachbart]

Originally Posted by Joe Mac

Really though I'm not feeling the "love of a newbie" from some, which makes me hesitant to go forward with the project, because I know I'll need alot of help from this forum.

With all due respect, I really can't see where you are getting that from. Sleonard simply might have overlooked that some of the "pre-build" WHS machines do not even have any slots available (many do), but his point is still valid: a WHS server is not necessarily meant to be just a 'dumb' appliance, I for myself (and many other users here) have WHS running successfully with tuner cards and use it for a lot of other sever functionality (video conversion, comskip, svn server, etc).

Dirk

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Joe Mac

Hmmm. Perhaps because none of the machines specifically built for and pre-loaded with WHS on the market, such as the HP MediaSmart, even have an IDE port inside in order to support a tuner. Neither do they have PS/2 mouse or keyboard ports. Only one that I know of has a video port for a monitor, which is contrary to Microsoft's requested specs.

The basic reason none include a tuner is because, Microsoft, in their infinite wisdom, decided WHS wouldn't be the right place for a PVR backend, ie, they decided not to include the MCE backend in it. Rather stupid IMO.

Tuners go into PCI or PCIe slots BTW.

This is because they are built to be "headless" and only remotely accessed and configured via the Home Server Console.

My server is headless. I only remote in for management. This is, IMO, the idea setup for a PVR/DVR/Media server backend.

I did not mean to "rock any boats" here as to what is or is not a server or its uses. My quotes about commercial WHS machines being "appliances" and "digital storage centers" vice more robustly configurable and expandable computer products were exactly that - quotes from reviewers of these products.

IMO, an "appliance" is the perfect place for a media server/PVR backend to live. 99.9% of the problems people have with their HTPCs are because they treat them like PCs and not appliances.

I do realize that SageTV is designed to record and store recorded TV and that is why I was asking for help in figuring this out.

If I could have:



...I would not have sought another solution.

HD HomeRun, USB Tuners, there are a number of solutions for getting tuners into a system without slots.

- I thought that I may have needed Sage on the WHS Server to stream from it to the HD 100 media extender that I was waiting to buy when they got their next shipment. I too think it would be a waste of a good server! I was and still am a little confused why Sage would make the Server software for systems that can not have an internal tuner.

Perhaps they are looking ahead and know that vendors will be offering machines with built-in tuners (or available IDE ports for user customization) in the future.

Sage has always catered to those who aren't really satisfied with with the "status quo". While the WHS version of Sage surely will run on pre-built WHS machines, I'd guess it's more likely targeted at those who are building their own WHS machines.

Of course, even for prebuilt systems, there are options (I mentioned above) for getting tuners into a system with no card slots.

As a side note, I really can't believe MS thought WHS was better off without MCE backend capabilities (ie recording), course, I can't believe they haven't releases softsled capabilities either. Guess I'll never figure out MS's MCE strategery.

- The thought of having the Server out of sight, "out of sound" and out of the living room was another reason for it not to be the actual "DVR". The HTPC that I am almost finished building is perfectly silent, but will not have much capacity for storage.

- Its good to know that saving recorded TV to a networked drive is do-able without degradation and that the issues I've read about are probably warrantless and most likely predicated on bandwidth concerns - thanks.

Hey, if I knew that you had to have an IQ to set up a Sage system, I would have just got a Tivo!

I'm not feeling the "love of a newbie" from a long time SageTV expert, which makes me hesitant to go forward with the project, because I know I'll need alot of help and patience from the members this forum as I alluded to. A pre-built solution may be the best way for me to go for all of us!

Thanks again to those who took the time to help.

Joe Mac

Ah, don't let a curt reply or to stop you

[Joe Mac]

Dirk-

Roger that, an over-reaction.

I simply don't understand taking the time to respond to a question without offering any answers (aside from the obvious) and only critiquing the question itself.

I would be interested in more info on those pre-built WHS systems that have IDE ports that you mentioned. All of the ones that I know of do not, that's why I have considered building my own with an OEM version of WHS, but when you load the OS it gives dire warnings of not using it directly. Probably just a scare tactic for folks like me so we don't gubber up the OS somehow!

Joe Mac

[sleonard]

Originally Posted by flachbar

With all due respect, I really can't see where you are getting that from. Sleonard simply might have overlooked that some of the "pre-build" WHS machines do not even have any slots available (many do), but his point is still valid: a WHS server is not necessarily meant to be just a 'dumb' appliance, I for myself (and many other users here) have WHS running successfully with tuner cards and use it for a lot of other sever functionality (video conversion, comskip, svn server, etc).

Dirk

Exactly. I didn't mean to be rude at all. I just didn't consider that you would use one of those limited pre-built things and was simply talking about a generic PC running WHS not any specific models.

Also, just to be correct, tuners need a PCI or a PCI-e slot or a USB port not an IDE port and not having connectors for keyboard, mouse, or monitor and being headless makes no difference to Sage at all. I run my server headless and use RDP to connect to it remotely.

One last thing,

I was and still am a little confused why Sage would make the Server software for systems that can not have an internal tuner.

Sage made a version of their SW for WHS the OS not for some corporations implementation of HW that they load WHS on. HP, Dell, et al, could very well choose to make their HW more extendible than they do.

Scott

[Joe Mac]

Stranger-

Of course you are right. Not many are as long-winded as I am, thank goodness!

I was unduly frustrated with trying to figure this stuff out (I still have the seemingly impossible challenge of multiple tuners weighing on my mind ) and I way over-reacted and probably just plain misinterpreted.

My apologies to all, especially Sleonard.

Anyway - I am WAY excited that you know so much about WHS and SageTV hope that you will let me absorb some of that insight!

PCI, right, right... I've got hard drives and DVD drives on the brain. Even they are going mostly SATA nowadays anywho. Also, USB mice and keyboards are immune to the lack of PS/2 ports. I did think about an external USB tuner, but hoped for a cleaner solution.

IMO, an "appliance" is the perfect place for a media server/PVR backend to live. 99.9% of the problems people have with their HTPCs are because they treat them like PCs and not appliances.

So that IS probably why MS probably wants them headless, so I won't gubber it up fiddling with it and "tweaking" it to death.

But I can configure the WHS OS by installing the tuner drivers to run, get everything working before going headless, right?

'Cause right now, with SageTV installed, all I see from the SageTV WHS Console tab is that it is running in the background. I just need to hook the monitor/keyboard and mouse back up, install the lasted version of JAVA and configure SAGE like I would on any other OS. My first server OS, can you tell? Thought that they were a totally different monkey. WHS's dire warnings not to use it like a regular OS to load programs, drivers etc sure worked on me - I did not so much as click on an icon before unhooking the monitor and keyboard like I was "told".

So, I'm going to order the parts to build my own server and I'm going to get SageTV running on it like a pro with tuners and make it quiet for the living room. Once I get it all configged, I'll make it headless, so I have a 99.9% chance of keeping it solid and stable!

Joe Mac

P.S.- I'm still WAY concerned about figuring out how to make multiple tuners work correctly (I'll need two cable boxes) ... do y'all check up on the hardware forum newbies too??

[Joe Mac]

Scott-

Right on spot with the limitations of the pre-built ones.

Per above, I'm ditching that idea, thanks to y'alls insight.

And again, as above, my apologies.

Joe Mac

[GKusnick]

No need to keep hooking and unhooking mice and monitors. You should be able to RDP into the WHS box to install device drivers and so forth, even while it's headless.

For Sage administration, you can also bring up the Sage UI on your client machine and do any needed configuration from there. The client UI gives full access to all server config functions (tuner setup, channel lineups, etc) once you have the drivers installed on the server.

[oaamaas]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

No need to keep hooking and unhooking mice and monitors. You should be able to RDP into the WHS box to install device drivers and so forth, even while it's headless.

Second that. The only ones who need keyboard, mouse and monitor are the ones (like me) who build their WHS machine from scratch. After having installed the OS that equipment can safely be stuffed away, my server with tuners and all stays in the closet.

I can highly recommend running SageTV on WHS. I hate to think back on all the hours and money spent trying to create a single instance living room solution - quiet, with looks and loads of storage. Just need a couple of those HD extenders now to complete my migration.

[Joe Mac]

oaamaas-

Y'all have got me on the right track now! Will be building my server too and have just the perfect coat closet for it.

You do have me curious as to how you set everything up to remotely change channels with the tuners in the closet, unless you don't need to also control a cable box. That part confused the heck out of me when trying to figure out how to set up more than one tuner.

I sure hope you get your two HD Extenders to complete your setup from the second batch!

Joe Mac

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Joe Mac

You do have me curious as to how you set everything up to remotely change channels with the tuners in the closet, unless you don't need to also control a cable box.

You put the STB in the closet with the server. Once you get used to watching TV through Sage, there's no need to have the STB near your TV.

[samgreco]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

You put the STB in the closet with the server. Once you get used to watching TV through Sage, there's no need to have the STB near your TV.

Amen!

[cosmokramer_XXX]

Ok, not to re-open a can of worms but I actually went through something similar 2 months ago and pretty much gave up on Sage out of frustration. I believe there are some confusions around WHS when installed on a pre-built system like the HP Mediasmart Home Server (which I own) and how to implement as a stand alone system (if you even can). So let me attempt to lay out the issues and pose a few questions if you do not mind. I believe the issue at hand is more with the tuner hardware than with Sage itself. IE - how to get Sage running with the tuner on a server like the Mediasmart.

My main objective was to get SageTV running on the Server since it is always on and not have to have the Desktop constantly running. The programs would record directly on the Server and I would access via the HD Extender on my TV.

I selected the HDHR solely based on the fact that you do not need to install it within a system/PCI

1) I have a desktop connected to my router along with my Mediasmart Home Server
2)I hooked up a HDHR to that same router
3) In order to get the HDHR to work, I needed to install on the Desktop (I couldn't figure out if I could install it directly on the Server). I figured I would get it working on the desktop first and then see about getting it on the Server.
4) Once installed on the Desktop, I had no idea how to use the SageTV Add-In on the Server.

So I guess my questions are:

1) Can you install HDHR directly on the Mediasmart Server and if yes, then how? I would assume that if you can get it installed, you can just have SageTV for WHS running with it?
2) If not, can I get it working so that my desktop doesn't always have to be on to record programs?

Any help is appreciated.

[rlvogel322]

Originally Posted by cosmokramer_XXX

1) Can you install HDHR directly on the Mediasmart Server and if yes, then how? I would assume that if you can get it installed, you can just have SageTV for WHS running with it?
2) If not, can I get it working so that my desktop doesn't always have to be on to record programs?

1: If you can install software on the Mediasmart Server then yes the HDHomerun will work with WHS. Once you install the HDHomerun software I would recommend that you get it set up as a service.

I have a home built WHS box that interfaces with a HDHomerun, PVR 150 and StreamZap remote. Granted, you have to install the 150 into a PCI slot but everything works great. I will only be using it for playback for another week. Once my HD extender arrives it goes into a closet.

[cosmokramer_XXX]

I might be able to install the HDHR software via Remote Dektop but not 100% sure. I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this issue.

[Polypro]

Yes, you have to install it (it has BDA drivers) on the WHS itself...C:\Program Files etc... I don't know how the Mediasmart is, but I have a KB & Mouse KVM'd with my WHS box.

P