What is the deal with CBS?

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

The difference is that the evening news happens on a fixed, predictable schedule. It may be a waste of airtime (local news certainly is, in my opinion) but it doesn't disrupt any other programming.

If networks want to do the same thing with sports, fine. Let them preempt an entire evening for the game and its associated blather, and I'll just tune out. My complaint (which seems to me a legitimate one) is that they don't schedule enough time for the game, and then allow it to displace other scheduled programming when it runs overtime. That's false advertising in my book. By trying to have it both ways, they pretty much guarantee that some viewers are going to end up ticked off (and heaven forbid it should be the sports fans).

That is what should be done.

I totally understand the revenue generated, and the sports fan wanting to see the whole game (could you imagine! "well that's all the time we have folks, check the paper to see who won"!), I also would rather not see sports (or anything) relegated to a special channel for just it. Why not blot out a sufficient amount of time that barring something TRULY unusual would be more then enough time? If the game took the "standard" amount of time they could fill the rest with interviews of athletes, highlight reels from HUGE games (recent or the past), Whatever (replay monologues from the tonight show, whatever).

I think to continue to "push everything back" is a concept that should have be retired.

[Spectrum]

Fox takes care of it by setting up a 1 hour buffer between the end of the game and the prime-time lineup and runs re-runs that it quashes if the game goes long.

It also looks like cbs provides an email/text message service to provide an update on what time your fav show is going to start due to sports run-overs.

So who is going to turn http://www.cbs.com/eye-lerts/ into a plugin
I don't know Java and have too many irons in the fire already so I'm not gonna do it. Here's an opportunity to be a hero.......

[Bizarroterl]

Originally Posted by graywolf

Anyone remember the Heidi game between the New York Jets and the Oakland Raiders?

I suspect that game is why they now delay the following programming. It wouldn't have been so bad if the Raiders hadn't done their score a zillion points in the last 2 minutes trick. They did though, and a lot of people were really upset.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

So who is going to turn http://www.cbs.com/eye-lerts/ into a plugin
I don't know Java and have too many irons in the fire already so I'm not gonna do it. Here's an opportunity to be a hero.......

That actually DOES look like something that could be added into SRE - but I don't know what information it contains in the email (won't know now until next sunday - as I did just sign up fro alerts for KCBS). Would still take some way to retreive the email from your email provider, and parse THAT to determine what shows have been shifted to when, and make listeners for all those potential shows for SRE rules - etc. Big undertaking, just to watch stuff like "60 Minutes", and "CSI: KitKat is now a Cop".

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That actually DOES look like something that could be added into SRE - but I don't know what information it contains in the email (won't know now until next sunday - as I did just sign up fro alerts for KCBS). Would still take some way to retreive the email from your email provider, and parse THAT to determine what shows have been shifted to when, and make listeners for all those potential shows for SRE rules - etc. Big undertaking, just to watch stuff like "60 Minutes", and "CSI: KitKat is now a Cop".

I investigated this a couple years back when this service was introduced by CBS. At the time, and for many months after its initial launch that I kept subscribing to the emails, the emails were useless. They didn't contain enough information to be useful. That, with some creativity, could have been overcome. The real issue, is that the content/format of the emails was never consistent - not even close - so writing code to comprehend what the emails were trying to tell me was impossible (or at least more effort than I was willing to give at the time). I asked CBS many moons ago about the possibility of them updating my web service for SRE with updated programming information. I never received a response from any email I sent to any email address belonging to CBS. That's when I gave up and stopped pursuing the idea any further.

livepvrdata.com has a similar setup to what I was doing at the time with SRE - they're design/infrastructure is actually better. If CBS (or any network) were willing, they could easily provide up to the second programming changes to the livepvrdata.com web service, which could then be consumed and acted upon by SRE, any other Sage plugin, or, for that matter, any kind of software at all. I don't believe any contact was attempted by livepvrdata.com with CBS, though I did share my experiences with them on the subject. If the livepvrdata.com project regains the steam it's recently lost then perhaps they'll make a pitch to CBS, but I would expect the same response from CBS (i.e. none).

Alternatively, if those emails have improved since I last received them then there are possibilities for SRE to add support for monitoring those emails - only issue with that is you have to somehow feed the emails to Sage/SRE. I never put any thought into that issue because I never got past the email parsing issues.

[Spectrum]

I was actually thinking SJQ after I posted that. I agree it should be doable.

Well as for getting the messages, http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/ looks like it would work and it has a cygwin package so installation shouldn't be too brutal I didn't find anything that was Windows native though. No surprise there....

If CBS sends the emails in a parsable format now I'd be glad to help with the parsing/cygwin details/etc. I just don't have the time to learn a new language right now.

[Slugger]

Don't like the getmail idea because I don't like asking for and storing credentials, especially for something as critical/sensitive as email. However, I've got a couple ideas for handling the emails. Have to run it by the livepvrdata.com team and see if they'll accept a patch to support it. Let's assume they will, it requires a lot of tedious setup and account creation with the CBS service. So tedious, in fact, that I will not do it. I'll code the sol'n, but someone will have to volunteer to do the grunt work. So I guess we'll see just how bad people want this and that'll determine if it gets done. Of course, it's unlikely to be completed during this NFL season, but if it works, it'll be good to go for next season! Now I'll move over and wait for the line of volunteers to form. If some does want to volunteer for this then PM me because I probably will forget to return to this thread after a day or two and will miss out on any further replies.

Note: The grunt work I'm talking about could itself be automated by someone with the programming skills (doesn't have to be Java because this work is all outside of Sage), but either way I have no interest in doing it. Basically, it requires creating a unique account with the CBS alert system for each known CBS callsign (affiliate). A quick Google search tells me there's in the neighbourhood of 200 such affiliates. So someone would need to automate the process of creating 200 accounts, each with a unique email address, or they would manually have to create the accounts. The key is that the callsign of the CBS station would be embedded in the email address and we'd feed these emails into livepvrdata.com, which would process them and update up to the second programming changes for each CBS affiliate (livepvrdata.com can accept incoming emails with very little effort). From there, SRE could then just query livepvrdata.com just as it does for sports info and adjust recording times accordingly. The key here is that I'd need an account for each CBS affiliate since you can't subscribe to more than one callsign per email address on the CBS service.

Note 2: This all hinges on the emails being in a somewhat consistent format that can be parsed to get the required info out of them. If that's not the case then all bets are off.

[Spectrum]

As for storing credentials, that's what dummy mail accounts on gmail/hotmail/yahoomail/etc are for! It looks like getmail is a bust though so it's a moot point. I had a bit of freetime after dinner and installed it. Apparently the Python that is installed with cygwin doesn't have SSL support so I can't even attempt a connection to anything I have access to.

I think Sluggers implementation would be the best route to take. Lets see how many Undercover Boss, Amazing Race, and CSI: Kit Kat fans want to step up

I will be willing to write a Curl script for doing the submissions on the CBS website if someone would provide a list of affiliates and the email address accounts/details (Creating 200+ CBS/gmail accounts would be a royal PITA) assuming the email is parsable.

If anyone is considering getting this started, it might be wise to wait until the results of the email parsability are in

[Slugger]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in517034.shtml

The sucky part (maybe), is that you have to provide a valid zip code for each affiliate. So for WWJ (Detroit, MI), you must provide a valid zip code for Detroit otherwise the submission is rejected. Now that validation might be JS only and if so then you can probably bypass it, but if it's also done server side on submission then you're going to have to find a valid zip code for each listed affiliate and pass it along with the account creation. Again, more tedious work involved.

I've signed up again for the emails for one of the CBS stations I get (Detroit) and will see what they look like this weekend.

As for the email addresses, you won't need to create gmail/etc. accounts. They will just be livepvrdata.com addresses. The account name will be specific and will have the callsign embedded in them so that livepvrdata will know which station it's receiving updates for. For example, an address for WWJ affiliate would look like:

cbsalerts+wwj AT livepvrdata DOT com

NOTE: Don't use that email address, it won't work right now and I haven't finalized the availability of any email addresses with the livepvrdata.com team yet.

[pjpjpjpj]

While reading this thread, I find myself thinking that it's only a matter of time before this is a service that is available - some automated means of providing standardized data that is readable by a Tivo or major-cable-company-provided DVR. This has to be one of the main gripes of the fast-growing DVR society (not Sage geeks like us, but those who just want a simple out-of-the-box DVR)... "so, I bought this box that is supposed to know when a show is on and record it, but it's not PERFECT?!?!? Waaah!!!! I hate {insert provider name here}!!" (to which I would say, "dude, this DVR/Tivo is 100,000X better than your old VCR, deal with it...").

But nonetheless, griping consumers always get what they want (and technology manufacturers are always looking for some new little perk to add that will make their device stand out), so I expect it will only be a matter of time before Tivo, or Time-Warner, or Comcast, or some mega-behemoth works out a deal with major sports providers (the four major networks, ESPN) where the post-game schedule is provided automatically to cable/satellite providers, who can then send a signal to everyone's boxes to adjust the EPG.

The question will be, when that becomes a standard technology in all these boxes, will the data be publicly available (and free) for HTPC developers as well.

[EnterNoEscape]

Originally Posted by wayner

On a similar vein, why do the OTA networks waste airspace on news every day given all of the 24 news channels available today. And why do all of the networks have to pre-empt regularly scheduled content a few times a year to show a speech by the President? If you want to watch the speech then switch to CNN!

I remember reading something about a guideline for over the air broadcasting that as part of their contract with the FCC, they are supposed to have some sort of educational content. Putting on the news seems to be part of fulfilling this contract.

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

While reading this thread, I find myself thinking that it's only a matter of time before this is a service that is available - some automated means of providing standardized data that is readable by a Tivo or major-cable-company-provided DVR. This has to be one of the main gripes of the fast-growing DVR society (not Sage geeks like us, but those who just want a simple out-of-the-box DVR)... "so, I bought this box that is supposed to know when a show is on and record it, but it's not PERFECT?!?!? Waaah!!!! I hate {insert provider name here}!!" (to which I would say, "dude, this DVR/Tivo is 100,000X better than your old VCR, deal with it...").

But nonetheless, griping consumers always get what they want (and technology manufacturers are always looking for some new little perk to add that will make their device stand out), so I expect it will only be a matter of time before Tivo, or Time-Warner, or Comcast, or some mega-behemoth works out a deal with major sports providers (the four major networks, ESPN) where the post-game schedule is provided automatically to cable/satellite providers, who can then send a signal to everyone's boxes to adjust the EPG.

The question will be, when that becomes a standard technology in all these boxes, will the data be publicly available (and free) for HTPC developers as well.

I don't think it'll ever be free, someone's going to pay. Either the service providing the ability to input/normalize/redistribute the data is going to charge the networks for uploading and processing the data, in which case the consumer might get it for free or for a nominal fee. This, however, seems rather unlikely because how do you convince CBS to pay a fee to provide network schedule data? This is even less likely if it's currently costing them nothing to provide their schedule data to Zap2It, TVGuide.com, etc. I'm not sure what the business model is between those entities, but if Z2I, TVG, etc. pay the networks to get their data then CBS sure as hell ain't paying to upload last minute schedule changes for consumers to get. I assume I must be close because Sage pays Z2I for access to its normalized data and I assume Z2I pays CBS, et al. for access to the raw data?

So the other alternative is that the end user pays either directly through a subscription service to access the data through Sage, MythTV, etc. or indirectly through an increased service fee with Tivo/cable co. DVR/sat co. DVR/etc. Since this data is being consumed and processed automatically, by design, it's not like costs can be offset by advertising revenue because there's no platform to show/view the ads.

Either way, someone's eating the cost of this data and that's probably what's stopping a big player from doing this kind of thing on a large scale - there's just no way to make $$$ unless you're convinced that 1) the end user will pay for the privilege of accessing this data and 2) there's a big enough user base such that you could set a reasonable price point that the user would pay while still at least covering all expenses. I suspect neither point can be met and therefore the reason we have no reliable source for this kind of data.

And given the shifting landscape of tv/content viewing to the internet, this kind of data is becoming less and less important since, presumably, someday you won't ever have to (or even want to) watch your show Sunday at 7pm, you'll just go to the show's web site and watch it on demand. I realize that day is well off into the future, but it's probably close enough to reality that this kind of investment is almost seen as useless by the "big boys".

[wayner]

The ideal situation would be some sort of a "carrier feed" that transmits show info, not unlike the way that PSIP or Closed Captioning is transmitted on top of the broadcast signal. That way every second or so it could tell SageTV "Show=CSI:NY" or "Show=NFL Football". That would help for shows that are extended, like sports, but it wouldn't help as much for shows that have a delayed starting time but at least you could maybe set up a process to watch for when the show changes on the relevant channel.

Again theoretically, another way to do this would to have a real-time feed internet feed like a CSS feed that tells you when shows actually start and stop. The problem is that you may have to have a separate feed for each and every network affiliate in the country.

But the cynic in me says that TV networks may like the uncertainty in their schedule - that means that you actually have to sit there and wait until your show comes on and that increase their ratings by a little bit. The downside to the networks is that they alienate viewers who say "screw it, I will just download the torrent later on tonight".

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by wayner

The ideal situation would be some sort of a "carrier feed" that transmits show info, not unlike the way that PSIP or Closed Captioning is transmitted on top of the broadcast signal. That way every second or so it could tell SageTV "Show=CSI:NY" or "Show=NFL Football". That would help for shows that are extended, like sports, but it wouldn't help as much for shows that have a delayed starting time but at least you could maybe set up a process to watch for when the show changes on the relevant channel.

The problem is that Sage needs accurate information in advance to do efficient tuner scheduling and conflict resolution.

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

(to which I would say, "dude, this DVR/Tivo is 100,000X better than your old VCR, deal with it...")

Sorry, I'm not buying the idea that we should cheerfully accept correctable flaws in new technology simply because it's better than older technology. If we remain silent about dumb design decisions, then the designers have no incentive to improve their products.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

The problem is that Sage needs accurate information in advance to do efficient tuner scheduling and conflict resolution.

That depends on your number of tuners and your propensity to have all of your tuners in use at the same time. This would rarely, if ever, be an issue for me, as I almost never have any conflict.

Given the fact that the OTA channels tend to be available on all types of tuners (OTA, QAM, cable) it it less likely to be an issue with most Sage users unless they like a lot of the shows that air on Sunday nights. And if you have OTA available it is a very cheap problem to solve.

[graywolf]

All those solutions would take care of situations if you wuld only be recording on the channel delayed. But if you are recording from multiple channels (barring additional tuners), you will have a conflict and lose something (potentially).

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by wayner

The ideal situation would be some sort of a "carrier feed" that transmits show info, not unlike the way that PSIP or Closed Captioning is transmitted on top of the broadcast signal.

Ironically, Sage can get that very info, at least via HDHR, if there is no Z2I info for an OTA channel. Many people don't know (though it's in the manual, most don't see the occurrence) that Sage only provides info for channels that are available in your local cable/sat listings, even if you are OTA. So local independent OTA stations that your local cable/sat companies do not carry will not have listings available through Sage, even if Z2I has them. Sage only contracted with Z2I for the cable/sat listings. I have a channel (main + 3 subchannels) for which Z2I does not provide info, because the channel isn't on my local cable/sat. Most of the time, it gives me "no data". However, every so often, I will get programming for one or two of the four (total) channels. It's very sparse and random, but sometimes it shows up, via the airwaves.

Of course, Sage also can have problems with it; I had a bad crashing error back in v7.0.21 which seemed to happen randomly - a bug submission and some back-and-forth later, and they determined it was caused when I had a EPG update and those channels choked on the OTA PSIP data somehow. They fixed it around release 22.

Originally Posted by wayner

But the cynic in me says that TV networks may like the uncertainty in their schedule - that means that you actually have to sit there and wait until your show comes on and that increase their ratings by a little bit.

I suspect that this is the reason that they don't make a big effort to alleviate the problem, and haven't totally fixed it in the 50+ years that they've been showing football on TV. After all, their goal IS to have eyes on their channel.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Ironically, Sage can get that very info, at least via HDHR, if there is no Z2I info for an OTA channel. Many people don't know (though it's in the manual, most don't see the occurrence) that Sage only provides info for channels that are available in your local cable/sat listings, even if you are OTA. So local independent OTA stations that your local cable/sat companies do not carry will not have listings available through Sage, even if Z2I has them. Sage only contracted with Z2I for the cable/sat listings. I have a channel (main + 3 subchannels) for which Z2I does not provide info, because the channel isn't on my local cable/sat. Most of the time, it gives me "no data". However, every so often, I will get programming for one or two of the four (total) channels. It's very sparse and random, but sometimes it shows up, via the airwaves.

I have never understand why Sage's contract with Z2I does not include "OTA-only" stations. Zap2It has the data and this is a very small fraction of the channels carried by Z2I - why wouldn't they provide this data to Sage for free or a very nominal cost.

By the way, you may be able to find guide data for that "OTA-only" channel that Sage does subscribe to. I had one channel similar to what you mention - it is the ion channel (from Buffalo NY) that has 3 or 4 sub-channels including a childrens channel called qubo. I was able to find a cable co, I think in Pittsburgh, that carried the channel. So I went to the Z2I website, entered a Pittsburgh zip code, entered the cable co (Comcast?) and found the channel ID number for qubo. I then manually added a new channel in Sage using this channel ID number and remapped channel 51-2 to this newly created channel and now I have guide data.

[Slugger]

Anyone else get a CBS alert email tonight? I'd like to see an email from someone in the eastern time zone that isn't subscribed for affiliate WWJ (Detroit). I'd also like to see some examples from anyone outside the eastern time zone.

[Spectrum]

I signed up but didn't get an email, not even in the spam bucket. Does it look parsable?