Hauppage HD PVR question w/ Sage

[Biggen]

Still building out my server. Orignally, I had wanted to get rid of my digital cable box but I (and the girlfriend) simply can't live with only 4 HD Clear QAM channels which is all I would get if I got rid of the box.

So anyway, I guess I am going to keep my cable box and now I have been looking into the HD PVR. Want I want to do is install one PVR 2250 and one HD PVR into my server.

I'd like to use the 2250 to to tune the Clear QAM's (and SD's) first, and then have the HD PVR tune them (via the IR cable I guess) if the 2250 is full. Is this possible? How would Sage know to do this?

I know that I will only be able to use the HD PVR to tune ONE channel which is acceptable.

[Polypro]

Separate lineups (use the copy option) will let you pick the channels for each tuner. You can also use encoder merits.

P

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by Biggen

... only 4 HD Clear QAM channels which is all I would get ...

Really, almost every where I've been has 6+:
ABC
NBC
CBS

CW
FOX

PBS

[MattHelm]

BTW, if you set it up, make sure the 2250 has the copy, and the HDPVR has the main listing. That way if they add any channels, they'll be on the HDPVR, which can receive them. I had it the other way, and a short while ago, I had to "fix" it so I could get new channels.

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

Really, almost every where I've been has 6+:
ABC
NBC
CBS

CW
FOX

PBS

A scan of my cable (two weeks ago on my Vizio TV) only yielded 4 Clear QAM's. CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX. No CW or PBs. I suppose I could have missed it when I was flipping through.

I think I am going to forego the HD PVR. I really don't want to keep a cable box AND use the HD PVR. I guess I will just wait until Silicon Dust comes out with Prime or until Hauppage comes along with an internal CC tuner. Of course there is also the Ceton Infinity possibility but, with no confirmed working results with Sage, I'm not plunking down $400 to be the "test subject".

So I guess I'll go with two 2250's and use one for OTA and the other for cable service. Hopefully by the end of the year, there will be a CC tuner that works with Sage...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Biggen

I think I am going to forego the HD PVR. I really don't want to keep a cable box AND use the HD PVR. I guess I will just wait until Silicon Dust comes out with Prime or until Hauppage comes along with an internal CC tuner. Of course there is also the Ceton Infinity possibility but, with no confirmed working results with Sage, I'm not plunking down $400 to be the "test subject".

So I guess I'll go with two 2250's and use one for OTA and the other for cable service. Hopefully by the end of the year, there will be a CC tuner that works with Sage...

Not likely IMO, Sage has purposely avoided DRM, which is a requirement for CableCard. Maybe they'll surprise us, but V7.0, with the ATI and Ceton cards out would have been the time I'd have expected a major development like incorporating DRM for CC. I personally would make decisions today under the assumption that Sage won't support CableCard until at least V8.

[Mythikal]

Originally Posted by Biggen

Of course there is also the Ceton Infinity possibility but, with no confirmed working results with Sage, I'm not plunking down $400 to be the "test subject".

I have this up and running.

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...07&postcount=2

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Not likely IMO, Sage has purposely avoided DRM, which is a requirement for CableCard. Maybe they'll surprise us, but V7.0, with the ATI and Ceton cards out would have been the time I'd have expected a major development like incorporating DRM for CC. I personally would make decisions today under the assumption that Sage won't support CableCard until at least V8.

Its really a shame. I would think their business would grow by leaps and bounds if they would support a CC tuner. Of course, there isn't really much on the market just yet. Other than the Centon, Happuage and Silicon Dust should have their tuners released soon..

@Mythikal
So it is possible! Have you been happy with the results so far? I read your post and it looks like there is a few problem but nothing that is keeping you from using it?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Biggen

Its really a shame. I would think their business would grow by leaps and bounds if they would support a CC tuner.

How so?

[Mythikal]

Originally Posted by Biggen

So it is possible! Have you been happy with the results so far? I read your post and it looks like there is a few problem but nothing that is keeping you from using it?

Yes, it's certainly possible. I haven't found any show-stoppers yet. I've only been using it for a few days, but it seems to be working pretty good so far.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by Biggen

Its really a shame. I would think their business would grow by leaps and bounds if they would support a CC tuner. Of course, there isn't really much on the market just yet. Other than the Centon, Happuage and Silicon Dust should have their tuners released soon..

@Mythikal
So it is possible! Have you been happy with the results so far? I read your post and it looks like there is a few problem but nothing that is keeping you from using it?

The problem with Cable Card is DRM. There are many threads and posts on this topic in the Sage forums. In order to support cable card, you must enforce DRM rules and everything in the chain (hardware, software) must be certified by Cable labs to ensure that the DRM rules are enforced. It is apparently very expensive to get certified and right now Microsoft is the only one that is. Rules have been relaxed somewhat (it used to be that you couldn't add a cable card tuner to any PC, you had to buy a PC that had the tuners installed for you already).

Any way, the cable companies must apply one of 3 flags to every show they broadcast (Copy Freely, Copy Once, or Copy Never). Using the MCTuner solution mentioned in the other post, it will transcode any show marked Copy Freely into a format that Sage can play back. Anything marked Copy Once or Copy Never will be locked down by DRM and un-playable by Sage.

So, the question becomes, which shows will get flagged Copy Freely and which will be locked out? Will they only lock down the premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc.) and let everything else through? Will they lock things down on a show-by-show basis? Will every cable company do this differently? Will they start out mostly copy freely and then change to mostly restricted over the next few months /years?

These are all real questions, especially in light of how things changed over time with both firewire recording and QAM recording.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Tiki

The problem with Cable Card is DRM. There are many threads and posts on this topic in the Sage forums. In order to support cable card, you must enforce DRM rules and everything in the chain (hardware, software) must be certified by Cable labs to ensure that the DRM rules are enforced. It is apparently very expensive to get certified and right now Microsoft is the only one that is. Rules have been relaxed somewhat (it used to be that you couldn't add a cable card tuner to any PC, you had to buy a PC that had the tuners installed for you already).

The bigger problem is nobody cares. ReplayTV, Tivo and Moxi have shown that people in general just don't care for anything more than their "free" Cable DVR gives them.

CableCard support for any PC solution just isn't of interest to hardly anyone who wasn't already using a PC as a DVR. I'm sure CC in Sage would bring over a few WMC users, and maybe a few new people in general, but I just don't see it as a game changer for something as niche as PC DVR software.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The bigger problem is nobody cares. ReplayTV, Tivo and Moxi have shown that people in general just don't care for anything more than their "free" Cable DVR gives them.

CableCard support for any PC solution just isn't of interest to hardly anyone who wasn't already using a PC as a DVR. I'm sure CC in Sage would bring over a few WMC users, and maybe a few new people in general, but I just don't see it as a game changer for something as niche as PC DVR software.

OK, perhaps I should have been more clear... what I meant was "The problem with trying to use Cable Card with Sage..."

Yes I agree, that cable card as a platform is a disaster and doesn't really achieve the FCC's stated goals. But that's a whole other discussion.

It's hard to guess how many new customers would come to Sage if they found a really good way to natively support Cable Card. I suspect that it would keep at least a few Sage customers from defecting and would make a lot more devotees very happy. But, I agree that many non-Sage users are happy with the crappy DVR boxes their cable and satellite providers offer and probably would never even investigate using Sage, or any other solution (that's the real reason that Windows Media Center never really took off - even though it's free, the average Joe doesn't want to mess with buying a TV Tuner and installing it in their PC when they have something that works provided by Comcast or Dish).

There is a reason why the first two questions they ask you from pretty much any tech support department are "Are you sure you turned it on?" and "Are you sure it's plugged in?"... a lot of people just aren't that bright.

[Biggen]

I wonder what the cost actually is to get certified by Cable Labs??

I haven't done any studies, but I would think the ability to pop a CC tuner in your computer and watch "True Blood" via HBO On Demand right on your computer (or on an extender somewhere else in your house) would be a hell of a thing to have the ability to do.

Now are most people going to go to the lengths we do? Of course not. Hell, I spent a week running Cat 5e all over my house. I'm still in the process of building out a Sage TV server (and will add an Unraid server down the road), bought another flat screen TV, and still need to purchase 3 HD300's and the Sage TV server software. I doubt many people will go to those lenghs but, then again, I wouldn't purchase $2K speakers or home audio equipment like some audiophiles I know either just to watch Bluray movies.

I guess what I am getting at is I can't see how it would be a BAD thing for Sage to move forward with CC certs. The only thing holding them back is money I suppose but I haven't seen any hard figures on cost. Are we talking ten of thousands of dollars for certification fees or hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't know what Sage's business model is, but they must have some fairly deep pockets to be doing what they are doing now.

I would think it would be worth considering...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Tiki

OK, perhaps I should have been more clear... what I meant was "The problem with trying to use Cable Card with Sage..."

Yeah I wasn't really meaning to disagree, but to jump off your post with some different thoughts (though related).

It's hard to guess how many new customers would come to Sage if they found a really good way to natively support Cable Card. I suspect that it would keep at least a few Sage customers from defecting and would make a lot more devotees very happy.

That's really the issue, the "HTPC"/PC as a DVR market is very small, as such there's not a lot of people to attract, except from other HTPC type products.

A new CableCard product is unlikely to be significantly more successful than any prior one, and CableCard has been a bust in general. Tivo, Moxi, Retail WMC machines. Heck even TVs no longer come with CableCard slots. Frankly it's a rather "risky" time to invest much time/effort in CableCard IMO (I'm thinking business/product creation more than personal use).

Ceton/SD/Hauppauge are probably sort of "stuck" they probably started development long before the signs of CC's death started appearing, but now they might as well finish/release the product and recoup whatever development they've done.

But for SageTV to dump development effort on something with such a questionable future and questionable (IMO) new customer draw, it's a much tougher question.

Originally Posted by Biggen

I wonder what the cost actually is to get certified by Cable Labs??

It's actually posted, I think it's on the order of $80-100k initially plus yearly fees, plus per-customer/user fees.

I haven't done any studies, but I would think the ability to pop a CC tuner in your computer and watch "True Blood" via HBO On Demand right on your computer (or on an extender somewhere else in your house) would be a hell of a thing to have the ability to do.

Sure for people that already have a PC DVR. Problem is most of them already either have Sage, or probably have WMC, and adding CC isn't going to get Sage anything from existing customers, and probably isn't going to attract that many WMC users.

But for everybody else, it's not going to attract many Tivo or Moxi users, and well if people with a Cable DVR or even just a cable box aren't already interested in switching another PC solution isn't going to change their mind.

Now are most people going to go to the lengths we do?

That's exactly the point, who is the target audience of this feature? Who is a CableCard SageTV solution going to attract to SageTV, that isn't already here/interested? I think Sage would basically have to make a special CableCard version of Sage (or special license for it) and charge an upgrade/transition fee to get anything ROI wise.

I guess what I am getting at is I can't see how it would be a BAD thing for Sage to move forward with CC certs.

The three "bad" things IMO are:

1. It takes development time away from other features
2. It costs a lot of money to get the licenses (if Sage needs them anymore).
3. It infects Sage with DRM, and this has been problematic on WMC even for those who don't use CC.

[Polypro]

As a "tech lover" who likes to buy the latest and greatest...CC is of zero interest to me. I seriously doubt that setting up a CC equipped HTPC is *easier* than an HD-PVR. My condolences to those that are having trouble with the HD-PVR, but I pulled two out of a closet after a year, and have had them running for a month, recording *everything*...they haven't missed yet...not once. Spend the money on something else, right on - +1,000,000!

P

[Biggen]

Originally Posted by Polypro

As a "tech lover" who likes to buy the latest and greatest...CC is of zero interest to me. I seriously doubt that setting up a CC equipped HTPC is *easier* than an HD-PVR. My condolences to those that are having trouble with the HD-PVR, but I pulled two out of a closet after a year, and have had them running for a month, recording *everything*...they haven't missed yet...not once. Spend the money on something else, right on - +1,000,000!

P

Surely, though, you aren't saying you would rather have two HD-PVR's and two STB's rather than one CC tuner that could do all of that same stuff??



Man, it seems like it would be cool as hell to have a CC tuner that would replace FOUR other pieces of equipment for dual tuning purposes. Talk about less clutter, less expense, and less crap to break down and fix!

[darcilicious]

Agreed. But I don't need a quad-tuner so I'm waiting around for a dual-tuner solution (or SD's triple tuner for $150 less than the Ceton...) I'd LOVE to give up the HDPVR