IT seems awfully quiet in the beta department... until now

[ChaOConnor]

We're all missing a big point here... With the announcement at the top of the forum that the sites (including the store) are going down on the 17th for "maintenance", this is a clear indication they're unvailing something HUGE! Just like Apple does when they put a new product on the Apple Store, they bring the whole site down to do it.

( I'm being sarcastic...)

EP, your idea is what I've envisioned them going to for a while now. I wonder if you're right and we'll see a demo at CES.

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by cncb

I'm not an expert in business but this model doesn't make much sense to me. If you are talking about Linux, sliding in hard drives, and plugging in tuners I think you have already lost the "Tivo crowd" who doesn't even want to know that there really is a computer "in there".

Well, "Tivo crowd" may be a bit of an over statement. You could slap a SageTV sticker on an actual Tivo and my parents still wouldn't buy it, but that's a whole different issue

But I work with a lot of smart, technical, people and even they see my Sage setup and say "Woah, that's awesome, but its too complicated for me". But if things were just a *hair* simpler it'd be enough to get them interested and that's a big chunk of new people.

[sic0048]

But what is the #1 complaint among users and potential users? It's the GUI. I mean really, how hard is it to upgrade to something more Web 2.0 like? It doesn't need to please everyone (it never will), but 0% of people love the current GUI. I use it because it is better than messing with SageMC, but it would be really nice to have more of a MCE feel out of the box. We are not talking major functionality changes, just some basic look and layout changes.

That is one MAJOR hurdle that will have to be crossed before SageTV ever becomes main stream. There are obviously others as well, but everyone considers looks when buying - and it doesn't matter what is being "sold"

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by sic0048

I mean really, how hard is it to upgrade to something more Web 2.0 like?

Web 2.0 like? What does that mean?

[Ikarius]

I tell you what, one major thing I would *kill* to see would be a port of the Sage Client to Playstation 3.

PS3 has all the CPU horsepower you'd need, it's got a remote (albeit a sorta cruddy one), it's built on top of linux, it runs java, it's *definitely* got the graphics horsepower... it's got a built-in blu-ray player- one of the best available according to most sources, and unlike other consoles, it's actually quiet, and a welcome member of a home theater setup. On top of that, at $299, it's not that much more expensive than an HD200, and it has *so* much more functionality, it's not even funny.

Imagine the UI's we could build if we were using PS3's to display them.


I'm just sayin.... I'd be doing backflips if Sage came out and announced a client for PS3.

Cheers
Ikarius

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by sic0048

I mean really, how hard is it to upgrade to something more Web 2.0 like?

Very.

[skyeclad]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Web 2.0 like? What does that mean?

He means that he wants it to looks like Facebook.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by skyeclad

He means that he wants it to looks like Facebook.

Well, that's at least better than Myspace...

[sic0048]

OK - Web 2.0 wasn't the best term to use. I use different icons in some of my automation stuff, and the newer 3-D type icons with decent shading and coloring are called web 2.0 type icons a lot of times. That was what I was really trying to get at.

Here is a quick google search on web 2.0 icons which is closer to the original intent of my comments.

But ultimately something closer to windows media center is what most people expect from their DVR software. As much as one might want to hate MS - they certainly got a lot of things right when it comes to the layout of media center.

[Polypro]

Originally Posted by sic0048

...but 0% of people love the current GUI.

Make that 99.9999999%, cuz I don't care if it ever changes

I just sat here for about 10 minutes...trying to come up with a solution that even grandma could install. I was thinking of something like an HD200 with BUILT IN Wireless N, bundled with like an EEEBox running a 330/ION combo with built in Wireless N set up from the factory (Sage) in an ad-hoc network....yadda, yadda. Then you start to see all the stuff you would still need to config... TOUGH JOB, hats off to those that try. Grandma will always need an installer to come to the house IMO. Maybe we could pick up some spare cash as "Sage Installer Network" members?

P

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by Polypro

Grandma will always need an installer to come to the house IMO.
P

Agreed. I just helped my parents buy a laptop computer and my mother calls me all freaked out because there was a blue light on after she shut the case. Apparently the default option for closing the lid was to put the computer to sleep whether it was on battery power or not. I tried to walk her through the process over the phone, but she was so unnerved by the blue light she couldn't do it.

I called back about a half hour later and spoke to my Dad, he had already figured it out and switched it to turn the computer off when the case is closed. We've all had a good laugh about it since, but it was crazy how unnerved my mother was about the blue light. "I can't get the blue light off!"

I can only imagine trying to get them to set up a SOS system.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Polypro

Grandma will always need an installer to come to the house IMO.

I agree, but I'd actually be more concerned about problems after deployment. What happens when Comcast moves the QAM channels around? Or they add/remove channels? Or one of the set box boxes turns off because of some sort of software update and doesn't turn back on automatically?

Not to mention when Grandma's HD-PVR locks up...

[brainbone]

I agree that the default UI needs updating (judging by the popularity of SageMC, I think this goes without saying. Those that are happy with the default UI are also probably happy without an automatic garage door opener in January, in Minnesota), but there are a number of outstanding bugs that I'd rather see addressed first.

[Stuntman]

Originally Posted by brainbone

I agree that the default UI needs updating (judging by the popularity of SageMC, I think this goes without saying.

I think with the resources SageTV has, however many and whomever that may be, they are sinking those into the driving engines of the products rather than the spit and polish. I would imagine that since the SageTV Community is doing such great work on the UI they feel they can free themselves up for other work. Probably a wise move for a smaller company, though the 'out of the box' look is somewhat of a turn off if you are trying the product out on a trial or viewing it for the first time..

[Fuzzy]

Try not to take the 'UI Complaints' on the forum to represent all the users. There are a LARGE silent majority of users that are perfectly happy with the defulat UI. I have used it for many years. It is clean, simple, and does what I want it to do. If all you are looking for is updating the 'look' of it, by adding 'web 2.0 icons' (not that I quite understand what that means), this is not THAT hard to do yourself in Studio. This is the benefit of sage's architecture. It is best that they keep it plain and simple, to facilitate furthur customization by the users. (Note, there IS theming built into the default STV)

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

There are a LARGE silent majority of users that are perfectly happy with the defulat UI.

I'm not entirely convinced. Sure, we don't know exactly how many people are dissatisfied with the current UI, but we don't know exactly how many people are satisfied either. Whenever this issue comes up on the forum there seems to be wide agreement that the stock UI is one of Sage's weaknesses. There's a certain amount of select bias involved in that, but that goes both ways. The most active people on these forums, many of whom weigh-in in those threads, are pretty big fans of Sage.

I suspect most Sage users aren't terribly concerned with the stock UI. But, part of that is because if they were they might not be Sage users to begin with. But I think it would be an exaggeration to say they're "perfectly happy" with it. In any event, I don't think we have any way of really knowing what the silent majority think.

[cat6man]

+1
perfectly happy with ui...........it's all about stability and functionality for me

[brainbone]

Originally Posted by reggie14

In any event, I don't think we have any way of really knowing what the silent majority think.

All I can go off of are the friends and family I've exposed the default UI to. All of them were very frustrated simply trying to do mundane tasks, like finding a recorded show. In general, the complaint was: Too many choices, too many buttons, too many operations to do something simple -- too much thinking.

I don't care how much candy (web 2.0) look an interface has. Usability is all that matters. Any animations, fancy graphics, etc., should be used to enhance the usability, by drawing attention to an area the user is most likely interested in for example.

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

I have used it for many years. It is clean, simple, and does what I want it to do.

I'm guessing you don't use an automatic garage door opener then?

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Whenever this issue comes up on the forum there seems to be wide agreement that the stock UI is one of Sage's weaknesses.

Don't mistake lack of counter arguments for agreement and don't underestimate the power of "laziness", many are simply tired of arguing there's nothing wrong with it. And/or we'd like to see an update if for no other reason than to end (or at least reduce) the complaint threads.

I suspect most Sage users aren't terribly concerned with the stock UI. But, part of that is because if they were they might not be Sage users to begin with. But I think it would be an exaggeration to say they're "perfectly happy" with it. In any event, I don't think we have any way of really knowing what the silent majority think.

Well we can judge by Sage's response itself, with how responsive Sage is to the community, if they were recieving a lot of complaints and/or thought the look was seriously harming their sales, I bet it would be changed by now.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Don't mistake lack of counter arguments for agreement and don't underestimate the power of "laziness", many are simply tired of arguing there's nothing wrong with it. And/or we'd like to see an update if for no other reason than to end (or at least reduce) the complaint threads.

That's actually another way of wording what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say that there was necessarily wide dissatisfaction with the UI on the forums. I was trying to say that even many of the people that don't have a problem with the UI have agreed it would be nice to see an update.

Maybe my memory is failing me, but I can't think of any other general areas that have the consistent criticism over the years as the UI. Maybe HD support issues (no cable card support, and general complaints over the HD-PVR), and maybe setup/configuration difficult. But actually I think those things aren't on the same level as the UI. Generally, Sage comes out very well in the DVR community when it comes to core features. It seems very clear to me that the same can't be said for Sage's UI. Do you disagree?

Well we can judge by Sage's response itself, with how responsive Sage is to the community, if they were recieving a lot of complaints and/or thought the look was seriously harming their sales, I bet it would be changed by now.

But we also know from Brent's interview that Sage sees it as an area that needs work. I doubt they know much more than we do about how people, in general, feel about the UI. Do you really think they do focus groups? We do see plenty of public complaints about the UI, both on the forum and from "outsiders".

I don't think you can so easily say if Sage thought this was a problem area that they would have fixed it by now. Redesigning the UI is very different than adding a new feature in the software. And I doubt Jeff's abilities in usability and graphic design come even close to his programming abilities.

In my mind, Sage has always focused on adding cool features. I'm sure a lot of that, probably even most of it, is because that's the niche they've carved out. But, I bet a fair amount of the reason is about what is more fun to do. I don't know Jeff, but pretty much all the programmers I know find it a lot more fun to work on functionality rather than UI stuff.