IT seems awfully quiet in the beta department... until now

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

While I can see a need for utilizing multiple streams from the same channel, SageTV, being in North America, are probably not that inclined to go through the major work it'll take to get there. There simply isn't much of that available here.

Even in the USA there is a need for being able to record multiple streams from a single frequency. If you have cable and use a QAM tuner, as I do, this would be VERY useful. Over Cox Cable in Oklahoma City most of the local networks here are located on only a few frequencies. NBC and ABC are together , CBS and PBS are together, and Fox and The CW are together. So, for example, if this capability were added to SageTV I could record programs from NBC and ABC simultaneously while only utilizing a single tuner. Tell me how this wouldn't be beneficial for us in the States?

[TwistedMelon]

Cablecard is all but dead. And buried. No point in talking about it really - it's not going anywhere. Especially not in the hands of indie developers like Sage.

The biggest names in the consumer space haven't been able to make any inroads with Cablecard. The cable companies haven't really done anything to help promote it either.

Just listen to all the news and talk about Cablecard at CES this year. Oh wait, there is no news? Right, because everyone pretty much agrees that it's useless technology, designed incorrectly, promoted badly and just a complete dud from the start.

No one is incorporating support for it into their products. It would be a total and complete waste of time and money to spend any engineering resources on anything Cablecard related.

"IP video is the future" has been the message for a long time but it hasn't caught on yet with the typical consumer. As mentioned, that is starting to change in a big way.

Multi-room is also going to be big and Sage is already there with the Extenders. The biggest problem on that front? Nobody knows about them or Sage.

Seriously, when Broadcom and the RVU alliance are making big news for the second year in a row with a poorly illustrated multi-room concept while better solutions already exist, it's a bit painful to watch. But a sign of things to come. Sony had multi-room server-based DVR back in 2004/2005, but that product was far too ahead of itself. The same as media streamers at every TV, 2010 is going to be where this all starts to shine.

Anyway, I'm very positive about Sage. I'm just not positive about them wasting time on dead-end technology like Cablecard. That's like suggesting they integrate support for direct to VHS recording in their next version. It will help pick up exactly the same number of new customers.

Anyway, to reiterate, Internet-enabled media streaming devices are dropping all over CES this year. Boxee and Popbox are the two biggest and best looking so far. But we're also seeing new wares from Iomega, Lacie, D-Link and others, all before CES officially opens. I'm pretty sure Microsoft is going to be driven completely out of the HTPC/Settop market the same way it's getting driven out of the mobile space. It's clear from what they've released that they don't understand the market and they're on their last legs with seriously waning consumer interest and recognition. None of the new streaming devices have anything to do with MS or its failed extender concepts. Sage could really rock an amazing product here as they have something no one else does - support for a PVR back end. It's all a matter of packaging everything correctly and promoting it well and thoroughly. I feel like a broken record since this is the same thing quite a few people have been saying over and over again.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by mpogr

Pardon my sarcasm, but I haven't seen anywhere a statement from Sage saying their products are targeted at North American market only. Neither I've seen such a disclaimer on the Web site selling their licenses. The fact they are a North American company doesn't (and shouldn't) mean they provide their other paying customers with lesser support...

Take in count that there are 195 Countries in the World it not possable to support every know standard that in each Countries and I maybe wrong but I don't think sagetv is setup for in house boardcasting for testing and debuging so there for I'm sure they have a few dev people outside of USA
The real probom is no world wide standard.

[mpogr]

Originally Posted by SHS

Take in count that there are 195 Countries in the World it not possable to support every know standard that in each Countries and I maybe wrong but I don't think sagetv is setup for in house boardcasting for testing and debuging so there for I'm sure they have a few dev people outside of USA
The real probom is no world wide standard.

First of all, don't get me wrong, my reply was not against Sage, it was against the claim that Sage wouldn't have to support some standard not used in the states because they're a US-based company. In fact, I have never seen such a claim coming from them.
Second, in fact, there is a worldwide standard, and it's called DVB. It's so much worldwide accepted, that it's used even in the states, but only for satellite broadcasting (DVB-S(2)), while in other parts of the world DVB-T and DVB-C are also used.
My request for multiple recordings from the same transponder doesn't require any country-specific handling, as it's completely standard according to DVB specs, including those used directly in the states (by DSS and Dish). DVB subtitles are used more rarely, but, still, are completely standard according to DVB specs.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mpogr

Pardon my sarcasm, but I haven't seen anywhere a statement from Sage saying their products are targeted at North American market only. Neither I've seen such a disclaimer on the Web site selling their licenses. The fact they are a North American company doesn't (and shouldn't) mean they provide their other paying customers with lesser support...

Sage is US based, and just like all US based companies, the support and features are US focused. Not supporting substreams isn't "lesser support" it's the same support we in the US get. The fact of the matter is a huge portion of your userbase has no use for a feature (as is the case for NA users) you're probably not going to see it.

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Even in the USA there is a need for being able to record multiple streams from a single frequency. If you have cable and use a QAM tuner, as I do, this would be VERY useful.

Only until it becomes encrypted, which could happen sooner than we'd like if the waiver for allowing encryption with DTAs is approved.

[mpogr]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Only until it becomes encrypted, which could happen sooner than we'd like if the waiver for allowing encryption with DTAs is approved.

What about ATSC? If I remember correctly, you have 2-3 HD or 4-5 SD channels broadcasted on the same transponder. Wouldn't this be useful for those too?

[evilpenguin]

Originally Posted by mpogr

What about ATSC? If I remember correctly, you have 2-3 HD or 4-5 SD channels broadcasted on the same transponder. Wouldn't this be useful for those too?

Nope, ATSC is usually 1 HD, 1 HD + 1 SD, or 2-3 SD's. However, 99% of the time the HD stream is what you're looking for so recording both won't be very helpful.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by mpogr

What about ATSC? If I remember correctly, you have 2-3 HD or 4-5 SD channels broadcasted on the same transponder. Wouldn't this be useful for those too?

Not really as useful as it sounds like it is in other countries. AFAIK, at least in my market, in the US each broadcast network (i.e. ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox) generally has their own antenna and their own frequency. There is no frequency sharing between networks. So being able to record multiple streams from an ATSC transmission would be practically useless. The only use would be for recording from clear QAM over cable.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Only until it becomes encrypted, which could happen sooner than we'd like if the waiver for allowing encryption with DTAs is approved.

Then I wouldn't really be any better off than I am right now as the only channels of substance that Cox Cable carries in the clear are the locals.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mpogr

What about ATSC? If I remember correctly, you have 2-3 HD or 4-5 SD channels broadcasted on the same transponder. Wouldn't this be useful for those too?

I think everybody covered it, but most of the time in the US the broadcast is an HD and maybe a sub or two from the same network. In my area two broadcasters broadcast 1HD and the SD simulcast on a sub, so tuning both is worthless for those. Another broadcaster has one HD and then an SD news/weather loop so not much use there. And the rest of them it could be kind of handy because they broadcast multiple different feeds, but not much interesting on the subs, or at least not much that tends to overlap, as the supplimentary SD subs are usually loops of syndicated content that's I think repeated a lot. But to explain better, every major network (CBS, ABC, NBC, Fox, PBS, etc) is a separate broadcaster on their on RF frequency, and thus separate transport streams). So for example if you want to record a first run of a major show from each of the major networks, you'll be recording it off 4-5 different frequencies, requiring that many different tuners.

But I think I know what the really huge difference is between the US/NA and the rest of the world regarding tuning/recording substreams. In NA, recording digital is only possible/usable with clear, unencrypted "free access" content, like ATSC OTA, or clear QAM. With either of these it's trivially easy to just add more tuners, at no additional monthly cost, if you need to record more things at once. So in the US, the lack of "sharing" on transport stream, combined with the triviality of using multiple tuners to get them makes simultaneous recording of subchannels on one transport stream not of much value.

In the rest of the world, where you can tune conditional access content (encrypted) via a card that you have to rent, I can see the monetary value where it would save a bit of money to be able to record 2 or more things with one CAM. But we don't have that "luxury" here since there's no open standard for conditional access (we're stuck with the CF that is CableCard and satellite with nothing).

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Only until it becomes encrypted, which could happen sooner than we'd like if the waiver for allowing encryption with DTAs is approved.

Hasn't that time already come? The FCC already approved the waiver to turn on "privacy-mode" (i.e. encryption) on the DTAs. Do you mean until the FCC starts giving waivers to encrypt the basic tier (i.e. local broadcast networks)?

In my area, Comcast has the local broadcast networks sharing channels. So, having the ability to record multiple streams from a given channel would be somewhat useful in very specific situations (as long as they stay in the clear), it wouldn't come up very often. It's not an important feature to me.

Originally Posted by TwistedMelon

Cablecard is all but dead. And buried. No point in talking about it really - it's not going anywhere. Especially not in the hands of indie developers like Sage.

I suspect that what you said is true. Cable Card isn't going anywhere. We'll still have it for quite some time, because it would take a long time to develop and deploy a replacement. To me it seems like it works reasonably well for what it needs to do. It works with the TiVos. It seems to work OK with Media Center, not that I've tried it personally. The biggest problem was just that nobody ran with the technology, except for possibly TiVo and Microsoft. And I don't think that was really due to the limitations in Cable Card, but to a general lack of interest in the marketplace by consumers.

I don't see any new hardware or software replacement for cable card being any more successful. Online or IP-based video distribution is almost certainly the future. But its probably many years away. I think we're probably stuck with Cable Card and tru2way until then.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Hasn't that time already come? The FCC already approved the waiver to turn on "privacy-mode" (i.e. encryption) on the DTAs. Do you mean until the FCC starts giving waivers to encrypt the basic tier (i.e. local broadcast networks)?

I don't know, I don't follow cable closely since I don't have it

[JetreL]

It's so funny every-time I see this thread I think, "Will this thread never die?"
Guess the answer is no until we get to the next beta....

And then I am willing to wager it is going to linger for some time.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by JetreL

It's so funny every-time I see this thread I think, "Will this thread never die?"
Guess the answer is no until we get to the next beta....

I'm guessing we're learn something in the next few days that will end a lot of the speculation that we've been doing in this thread. I suspect Sage will demo server-on-a-stick and/or a new UI, and we'll get some rough idea of how far off it is.

[flavius]

A UI update would make a difference in the niche market.

[wayner]

The Server on a Stick doesn't help most of us here but a new UI could be interesting. Speaking of UI - has there been any update from the guys writing the new Ortus and Phoenix UIs (I think that is what they are called). Any ETA on when we will see betas?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by flavius

A UI update would make a difference in the niche market.

This is an ongoing argument around here, but here is a comment regarding Sage on a popular Canadian web forum:

- Sage: added cost, crappy interface.

[flavius]

Originally Posted by wayner

This is an ongoing argument around here, but here is a comment regarding Sage on a popular Canadian web forum:

Really? An argument?

- Sage: added cost..

Clearly, Sage is way more expensive than porn.-

[razrsharpe]

Originally Posted by wayner

Speaking of UI - has there been any update from the guys writing the new Ortus and Phoenix UIs. Any ETA on when we will see betas?

here and here. i.e. - not anytime soon...

[sainswor99]

Most of my wishes for new stuff have been hit or mentioned above (*cough* UI), so I'll skip most of them (*cough* UI). I do have a couple that I'd like to see:

1. Placeshifter that works in Aero on Win 7; Aero is pretty, and it's a shame to lose it when running Placeshifter. Yes, some of us still watch TV on a workstation in windowed mode.
2. Multi-CPU support for transcoding (may solve the HD-PVR/Placeshifter issues, although I don't have HD, so no biggie).

[reggie14]

Well, we know a little more now that Dave Zatz met with the SageTV folks. Basically, we know SageTV 7 is coming, and will include an "all-new 3D UI". While I was hoping for more details, I still think this is good news. I suspected that Sage has been working on updating the UI, but I wasn't sure if they were going to build a brand-new one from the ground up, or just try to tweak the old one. This sounds like they're building a new one. It sure would be nice to see some mock-ups of the new interface before they get too far into it. I'm not a usability person myself, but the ones I talk to tell me lots of mock-ups and testing with actual users is key to building a good UI. Maybe Sage has a good set of private alpha/beta testers though.

Given that Sage didn't show anything off at CES, I highly doubt we'll see a new beta for quite some time. Also, given the lack of updates on server-on-a-stick, I'm starting to wonder if Sage has dropped that idea (not that I'm complaining).