An open letter to SageTV and Hauppauge management

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by jack_leach

I agree with the "possibility" that this is true, but frankly I don't know the answer. Only folks at SageTV and Hauppauge have a reasonable estimate of the ratio between "units sold" and "units with problems", and we'll never be privy to that information.

Of course, I think I said the same thing above (only Sage/Hauppauge know the ratio).

If this forum had a very limited number of postings then I would be inclined to agree that there are probably many more satisfied customers who are not using the forum. But the fact that this is a very active forum and currently has more than 356,000 posts tells me that there are a LOT of folks with a LOT of problems.

That 356,000 posts has been spread out over what, the past 7 years or so? Quite a large proportion of those are dealing with customizations, tweaks, setup options etc.

I know that only a small fraction of those posts relate to the HD-PVR, but without some sales figures, I'll never be able to approximate the percentage of owners who are happy versus unhappy.

Well we've got what, maybe 50 people, tops here posting about the HD PVR (in any form, and yeah, I'm taking a swag at the number), if they represent a significant proportion of the HD PVR owning population, Hauppauge made a big mistake spending the money to develop something that only sold in the hundreds.

And taking polls on this forum won't answer the question either.

Of course.

Here's an interesting analogy: We own an LG refrigerator that overheated and almost caused a fire. Research on the Internet has revealed that HUNDREDS and perhaps THOUSANDS of owners have had the same problem, but LG insists that the failure rate is below 2% and is therefore "acceptable". Well, it may be "only" 2% but I'm one of them and I don't like being ignored by the manufacturer when there's a serious problem. With the HD-PVR problem, if it's 2% (or 20% or more) who have issues, it's still a problem and needs to be addressed.

Nobody has ever said the HD PVR's issues shouldn't be addressed. We all want the device to be flawless, and successful. Thats's what's required for others to want to get into this sort of market.

[JetreL]

Originally Posted by stanger89

For better or worse, the PC software industry is quite different than something like that. Zero failures is simply not possible in a PC environment. There are just too many different configurations to guarantee zero failures.

Note that I'm not saying the HD PVR issues are "OK", what I'm saying is that if you're making PC software, especially for the "mass market" (ie anyone on the internet can buy/use it), you have to set some sort of "acceptable failure" level.

This is very different than the type of environment I work in (aerospace) or where it sounds like you work. These are custom integration/development, in that sort of environment, the variables are substantially limited, which is what allows "zero fail" results.

Back to the idea of pulling products that don't work well... Sage has done that in the past. Sage used to sell the Wireless Media MVP, but they eventually pulled that from their web store because so many people had trouble with it. It would appear that they aren't getting that sort of negative response with the HD PVR.

Problem here is, there isn't one. I'm guessing if you were integrating a product that had high demand, and only one supplier, you'd work a little harder with that supplier than if you could just get something else.

I work for a large cable provider and know for a fact that their environment does not work 100% of the time so why would you expect a sub $300 box to? We have thousands of people supporting equipment that has issues from time to time and they have spent millions of dollars building an infrastructure that is fallible. That’s why large companies use products that are redundant, have failover and pay support personnel to monitor and fix glitching equipment.

The fact of the matter is the HDPVR works enough that at the price point it is well worth the cost and overall is a pretty good solution. I have two HDPVRs and the wife and I have been very satisfied with the results. Sure it has quirks but can you show me a product that doesn’t?

Being in the Cable industry I understand that people can get a little crazy about their TV but its just TV. The HDPVR works, it works well and there is not another product out there that remotely does what it does for the cost and at the success rate that I have come to expect.

This is a support forum for a product that has a strong following, is mature but still in a state of flux, that’s very versatile product, which can have a steep learning curve. So of course it is going to have several hundreds of thousands of posts. If you don’t believe how good of a community this is we have 7 pages of responses for a hardware solution that was not developed by SageTV, LLC. All the regulars are well appreciated in my book. Thanks stanger89 and the others.

[jack_leach]

Originally Posted by JetreL

Thanks stanger89 and the others.

Ditto! Even when contrary opinions are voiced here, I always end up learning in the process.

[HelenWeathers]

My whole problem with this thread was the way it started out:

Originally Posted by jack_leach

If you've been following the forum here, you certainly know by now that there are MANY compatibility issues between SageTV and the Hauppauge HD-PVR. SageTV works pretty well without the HD-PVR, and the HD-PVR apparently works OK in some non-SageTV applications, but put the two together and you have a never ending nightmare.

I'd like the name of any multi-tuner non-SageTV application that works better than SageTV.

I don't think there is any company that has worked as hard as SageTV to make the HD-PVR work. Not even Hauppauge.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

My whole problem with this thread was the way it started out:



I'd like the name of any multi-tuner non-SageTV application that works better than SageTV.

I don't think there is any company that has worked as hard as SageTV to make the HD-PVR work. Not even Hauppauge.

Good call Helen. The main htpc software package out there doesn't even currently support this device and the ones that do have users that have problems with it. It isn't just Sage. With that said, many of us are quite happy with it and thank our lucky stars Hauppauge created it because without it I couldn't have just watched Mythbusters in HD just now.

[jack_leach]

OK. As the original poster I'll take the hit on this (partially deserved). At the time I started the thread, I was having LOTS of problems with the HD-PVR, almost all of which had been reported by others so I knew that I wasn't alone. After a lot of "pain and suffering" (and a lot of trial and error) I eventually worked through the problems and posted in this thread that I was now "content" (not ecstatic) with the performance of SageTV and the HD-PVR (see post #128). This thread has wandered around (as most long threads do) but most of the posts have stuck to the problems with the HD-PVR. Obviously there is a group (perhaps small; perhaps sizable) who continue to have problems with SageTV and the HD-PVR. Otherwise, this thread would have died a long time ago. Anyway, I'll restate that my SageTV/HD-PVR combination has been operating almost flawlessly for about a month now and I'm grateful for all of the contributions on this thread and others. Along the way I have developed a better understanding and appreciation for the efforts of SageTV in this matter (but still wish that Hauppauge would be more helpful in a variety of ways).

Jack

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by JetreL

I work for a large cable provider and know for a fact that their environment does not work 100% of the time so why would you expect a sub $300 box to? We have thousands of people supporting equipment that has issues from time to time and they have spent millions of dollars building an infrastructure that is fallible. That’s why large companies use products that are redundant, have failover and pay support personnel to monitor and fix glitching equipment.

Everyone, especially the consumers know that systems don't work 100%. Many reasons for that and many that joe sixpack doesn't appreciate. And I'm sure there are thousands of complaints for trivial and non reasons. So not all of us are ignorant to the challenges. But there are hundreds of thousands that don't call for help and not always because it works perfectly.

But I do expect my 'sub $300 box' to work better than it does. The two are not the same thing. This is a capture device, no tuners, no decryption, no xmiter back to the 'large cable company'. No large infrastructure, no monitoring staff, so yes, my $300 should buy quality.

The real shame is that I need one at all. In the analog days I could and still use my own tuner and it works very well with fast channel changes. In the digital age I would expect to get at least basic services the same way. We know how varied and ever changing that is if one is lucky to get much at all. The cable cos don't want me to use my own PVR when it competes with their own. You don't have to and won't support my PVR, only support signal at the F-connector and I'll be happy and I might come back as a customer.

Or, build your black boxes to output a digital stream that I can capture without a box in between. It is a shame that the promise of firewire is only used and then only on certain boxes for changing channels. A few bits of data over a high speed bus. impressive...

But I understand all the DRM, advertiser, content provider, political, and even technical reasons to why things aren't done the 'right' way. And perhaps it is no worry for the providers that a small market such as myself does not buy beyond basic analog services because of the technical shackles and my desire to not have a black box. Ironically I am the kind of customer you'll never hear from as long as I have a signal.

The fact of the matter is the HDPVR works enough that at the price point it is well worth the cost and overall is a pretty good solution. I have two HDPVRs and the wife and I have been very satisfied with the results. Sure it has quirks but can you show me a product that doesn’t?

Well mine works fairly well too and thanks to these forums and knowledgeable people it works a little better. But I don't think that the lockups should be something I have to shut up about just because the big company says so and I only paid $300.

Being in the Cable industry I understand that people can get a little crazy about their TV but its just TV. The HDPVR works, it works well and there is not another product out there that remotely does what it does for the cost and at the success rate that I have come to expect.

Funny that, I agree that it is only TV. I'm not the one calling about my precious missed show and other complaints that I'm sure you get and joke about in the lunch room. TV is indeed a trivial part of life which is why it isn't about tv, it is about spending too much on things that should work better than this.

I can empathize with people that have spent many thousands of dollars on their t.v.s and content. I'm still waiting for all this to settle down before I buy a t.v. And when the providers start offering something that I want I'll become a subscriber once again.

I used to be in the business myself. Long before the internet, PPV, and two way systems. I was lucky to have worked for the companies that developed the technologies that would later be called cable modems and what we have today. The first customers were commercial since 300 baud modems were enough for consumers but commercial needed much more. Companies paid a lot of money and expected it to work as advertised. But it still came down to cost. It had to be as cheap as possible yet still perform. Eventually the tech was cheap enough to put boxes in homes. I stayed on the commercial side since that is where the highest tech was and where there was enough commitment on the cable co side to treat it as something more than a t.v. that only needed to work half assed.

This is a support forum for a product that has a strong following, is mature but still in a state of flux, that’s very versatile product, which can have a steep learning curve. So of course it is going to have several hundreds of thousands of posts. If you don’t believe how good of a community this is we have 7 pages of responses for a hardware solution that was not developed by SageTV, LLC. All the regulars are well appreciated in my book. Thanks stanger89 and the others.

Yep, thankfully we have a support community. That is why I'm here instead of the more proprietary choices.
Sorry if this went off track but that happens with these long threads and when you can't prevent yourself to respond to them. In general the HP-PVR works, just not quite as well as I thought it might.

[Skirge01]

An update to my adventure with 2 HD-PVR's. As I alluded to, I enabled the SPDIF connection and digital output on my Rev. D1 HD-PVR. Within a day, I was missing audio on seemingly random programs, whether they were in stereo or DD. Some worked, some didn't. Even simple channel changes frequently resulted in a loss of audio on the Rev. D1. I changed the SPDIF cable without any improvement. I also changed the Rev. D1 with another Rev. D1 I have as a spare and it exhibited the exact same behavior.

Finally, I kept the SPDIF connection, but disabled DD on the STB. This resulted in at least one hard lock of the HD-PVR and required me to pull the plug on it. At this point, I decided to contact Hauppauge again (just last night, in fact).

They offered to do an RMA and would send either a C3 or a D2, which they say is precisely the same as an E1. (If you recall, my E1 is still functioning nearly flawlessly, except for the hiccup I reported about.) They also mentioned that what I was previously told about the unit's stop/start for DD was not entirely accurate. The reason this came up is because they saw my post here on the forums. I just thought I'd point out that Hauppauge does seem to be monitoring the issues via the Sage forums. Anyway, they believe that the hiccup I reported is simply the nature of the unit itself and the chip must do this in order to work, but they are still looking into it.

I'll be sure to post again with my results from the next unit I receive. Hopefully it will be an exuberant post extolling the joys of a reliable, dual HD-PVR setup using DD everywhere!

[Clift]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

An update to my adventure with 2 HD-PVR's. As I alluded to, I enabled the SPDIF connection and digital output on my Rev. D1 HD-PVR. Within a day, I was missing audio on seemingly random programs, whether they were in stereo or DD. Some worked, some didn't. Even simple channel changes frequently resulted in a loss of audio on the Rev. D1. I changed the SPDIF cable without any improvement. I also changed the Rev. D1 with another Rev. D1 I have as a spare and it exhibited the exact same behavior.

Finally, I kept the SPDIF connection, but disabled DD on the STB. This resulted in at least one hard lock of the HD-PVR and required me to pull the plug on it. At this point, I decided to contact Hauppauge again (just last night, in fact).

They offered to do an RMA and would send either a C3 or a D2, which they say is precisely the same as an E1. (If you recall, my E1 is still functioning nearly flawlessly, except for the hiccup I reported about.) They also mentioned that what I was previously told about the unit's stop/start for DD was not entirely accurate. The reason this came up is because they saw my post here on the forums. I just thought I'd point out that Hauppauge does seem to be monitoring the issues via the Sage forums. Anyway, they believe that the hiccup I reported is simply the nature of the unit itself and the chip must do this in order to work, but they are still looking into it.

I'll be sure to post again with my results from the next unit I receive. Hopefully it will be an exuberant post extolling the joys of a reliable, dual HD-PVR setup using DD everywhere!

I'm ecstatic that they montior. Maybe, with descriptive accounts of problems like yours, they may be better able to repeat in the lab and fix the issues.

[Chriscic]

I'm also waiting for a RMA replacement on one of my two units (although I've yet to run more than one at a time). Interestingly, the one I RMA'ed was locking constantly, but the second one hasn't had a problem in the two weeks it's been in the system (using DD sound as well). I have had lockups with this unit before, but always much less frequent than the more troublesome unit.

Once I get the RMA replacement hoping to get both units running together via the USB-UIRT.

I'm not at all confident the new unit will be reliable since it will be the third RMA return (C1 to C2 to D2 to ?), but hope springs eternal. Certainly running the one now without constant fear or a lock-up has made my TV viewing much more joyful.

My reco is that if you're experiencing lockups stop futzing around with covering the IR port and USB port changes and RMA the unit.

Good luck to all.

[jack_leach]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

(although I've yet to run more than one at a time)

I have the same situation. I'm finally running successfully with one HD-PVR but have been waiting for a period of stability before trying the second unit. Now that I've been running OK for a month, I'll add the second unit soon. I'm also using a USB-UIRT. Will you be using a single USB-UIRT for both HD-PVR's (using the two channels of the USB-UIRT) or will you be using separate USB-UIRT's? Please report your final results to this thread (so I don't miss it). Thanks!