An open letter to SageTV and Hauppauge management

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Back to the topic, the fact that Opus isn't able to share any Hauppuage thoughts on the lockups (and you know they've been discussed with Sage) is just further confirmation that there's a hardware problem/high number of defective units and Hauppauge knows it but isn't going to come out and admit it, lest they be assaulted with return demands.

No - do not put words in my mouth.

I am, in fact, saying exactly what I said w/o any hidden meaning: I have nothing else to post about it from Hauppauge.

Since you added meaning that I did not intend, now you know why I didn't plan to reply to your question in the first place: anything I say will probably get twisted into something I didn't intend. And, it did.

- Andy

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Ok, I'll bite. So therefore what? Say I take responsibility for purchasing a product known to have potential problems. Are you saying I shouldn't try to share information to try and get it fixed, or I shouldn't complain about it? What's your point, aside from getting your fellow users to say their problems are their own fault?

BTW, I just went and re-read some of this thread and noticed that the response I posted which got you upset wasn't even directed at you, but at vikingisson's comments about "Joe six pack" and such.

But, to respond to you: Not in the least. You're doing the right thing. At no point did I suggest you shouldn't be complaining or that you shouldn't be posting here. We're all here for the same purpose: education (both giving and receiving).

I'll try to rephrase what I'm attempting to get across. I purchased a product I knew to have issues. I accepted responsibility for that and did what I felt was necessary to get to a point I was satisfied with things. For me, that included staying up until 4am a number of times, lots of cursing, buying more parts, swapping STBs, a couple of RMAs, a few support emails, and a handful of posts.

I guess someone who gets mugged should also take some responsibility for being out too late. Ok, fine, but how is this relevant to a solution?

At the extreme, if me, an American civilian, decided to stroll through an Al-Qaeda controlled city in Iraq and was killed, yes, I would have to take some responsibility for what happened. Tragic? Yes. Should it have happened? No. But, I have to share in the responsibility, since I knew the risks and decided to go there anyway.

You've already made significant contributions on this topic, so I know you're not just trolling. You're just perplexing on this

Thanks, I'm definitely not trolling. Heck, I even tried to find the issues you were having to try and help out and move this topic back to education. Hopefully this helped explain my logic and we can get back to problem solving...

[Chriscic]

Ugh... just as soon as I hit "submit reply" I went back to delete it because I realized it sounded more po'ed than I'd intended. Just came back to rephrase but it's still there... oops!

Opus, regrets if it came across as putting words in your mouth... didn't think I was doing that, especially to the extent that you didn't say anything That is just my ongoing interpretation of the situation, and while obviously I can't know, it seems like a reasonable conclusion given Hauppauge's silence. There's just no apparent desire to address the situation and help out users over at Hauppauge (other than RMAing units without a fuss so far, which they get credit for), which annoys me to no end as both a practical matter and on principle. Sage, on the other hand, does obviously want to help... if there were Hauppauge forums trust me I'd be there complaining instead! I just don't see how hard it can be for *someone* in the know to explain or give theories for lockup issue which so many are experiencing, although clearly it is not Sage's responsibility to do so.

Skirge, I knew your post wasn't directed at me... I really was just truly preplexed by the logic. Agree with your example but where do you draw the line... I think it's somewhere after buying a piece of electronics and just expecting it to work, but that's just me : ) Thanks for your reply and yes now back to regularly scheduled programming...

Totally on topic Hauppauge agreed to send me an RMA for the more lock-up prone of my two units. We'll see how that works out. As far as more assistance on trouble-shooting, appreciate the offer but I feel it's the hardware and therefore pointless. I will send a log file to Sage next time it locks up, but after swapping out my HD-PVR with the second one I own (will get both going with USB-UIRT soon) I haven't gotten a lock-up in the last few days.

[JetreL]

Originally Posted by Opus4

My HD-PVRs have now worked for 2 months w/o a lock (previous record was 1 week), but I'm trying not to say that too loudly or else they might hear me and lock up just to spite me.

That's strange. I have read a good deal about lockups missed programs on the forums but I have never had either. I have had some issues where Sage would take up ungodly amounts of RAM and had minor playback issues. But I resolved those with rebooting every morning ~5:00 am.

I was an early adopter of (2) HD-PVRs and have never had major issues. I am running the latest drivers and using RCA cables for Audio. Did you make any changes to stabilize you config?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by JetreL

Did you make any changes to stabilize you config?

I posted about it here.

I forgot to mention that I pointed a wand at them and shouted "Desisto Lockupus".

- Andy

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by Opus4

I forgot to mention that I pointed a wand at them and shouted "Desisto Lockupus".

Are you sure that wasn't "Desisto LockOpus"?

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Are you sure that wasn't "Desisto LockOpus"?

That variation never occurred to me.

- Andy

[jack_leach]

I started this thread in April but haven't posted in a while. For the record, we still haven't received a response from SageTV or Hauppauge on the issue of flaky HD-PVR performance with Sage. I understand that Sage has other channels for formal tech support, but I'm still annoyed that they don't have a better "presence" here.

On my personal battlefield with this issue, I've actually made some significant progress with my system. Over the past month my system has been "almost" flawless and I've made more than 100 recordings (mostly HD with 5.1 audio) and for the first time since I started this adventure in February I can say that I'm actually pleased with the performance and stability (knock on wood!). I'll never know exactly what stabilized my system because I've tried so many things (see my original post on this thread). I'm sure that some of the tweaks and software/firmware/driver updates were helpful, but my main issue turned out to be an errant universal remote control that was making unwanted changes on an HD200 extender located in another room.

Along the way I also had to RMA one of my HD-PVR's, one of my HD200's and my USB-UIRT (all with confirmed problems which doesn't say much for hardware reliability!). When my HD-PVR was replaced (I have two) I decided not to reinstall the unit until I had stabilized the system with one HD-PVR (trying to keep the system as basic as possible). Now that I'm stable, I'll attempt to add the second unit, but the thought of this makes me nervous.

I know that I'll continue to have "issues" with Sage/Hauppauge in the future, but at least I've finally reached a point where I'm "content" (not ecstatic) about living with Sage.

Thanks to everyone here for making this a great forum! I came very close to bagging this system on several occasions, but you guys and gals came through every time and provided the information and support that I needed.

Jack

[Brent]

Originally Posted by jack_leach

I started this thread in April but haven't posted in a while. For the record, we still haven't received a response from SageTV or Hauppauge on the issue of flaky HD-PVR performance with Sage. I understand that Sage has other channels for formal tech support, but I'm still annoyed that they don't have a better "presence" here.

Jack,
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm scratching my head at the above comment. What kind of "official presence" are you looking for on the user forums? Opus and Narflex both post to the forums pretty often when there is anything they can contribute to and Opus has been pretty darn active on the HD-PVR topic imo.

I understand you were frustrated with the HD-PVR and all, but I don't see where it was a SageTV problem. HD-PVR owners across the board have had various issues with the device including BeyondTV, MediaPortal, GBPVR and other software products. I think SageTV has done a pretty good job of updating their software and firmware (for extenders) to handle the sensitivities of the HD-PVR. What more should they have done?

Regarding my current experience with the HD-PVR: I have had some issues with my HD-PVR that I think mostly can be attributed with poor HD-PVR firmware updates from Hauppauge, but the latest update has made it pretty solid.

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by jack_leach

Along the way I also had to RMA one of my HD-PVR's, one of my HD200's and my USB-UIRT (all with confirmed problems which doesn't say much for hardware reliability!). When my HD-PVR was replaced (I have two) I decided not to reinstall the unit until I had stabilized the system with one HD-PVR (trying to keep the system as basic as possible). Now that I'm stable, I'll attempt to add the second unit, but the thought of this makes me nervous.

It seems a bit suspicious to me that one person would have so many hardware issues at the same time. It makes me wonder if there might be a common cause such as dirty power or something like that, which could be causing multiple components to fail. It's just something to consider. I haven't read your posts, but if you haven't done so yet, I'd suggest putting everything on a UPS to condition your power.

Aloha,
Mike

[jack_leach]

Brent,
I'm certainly not complaining about Opus' contributions here. His input is invaluable. While I don't fully understand Opus' role at Sage, I sometimes feel that he's being constrained (by Sage?) in the information that he provides to the forum (as noted elsewhere). I agree that Hauppauge is the primary culprit here and that Sage is WAY more helpful than Hauppauge in resolving problems and working with customers, BUT there's still something lacking. If you go back to my original post, somebody at Sage or Hauppauge could have come forward and said "we hear you, we're working on this and we'll keep you posted". I'm still waiting to hear that.

I really want the Sage platform to succeed because I have such a huge personal (and financial) investment in my system. Any comments/opinions that I've posted on this forum have been the result of my attempt to communicate one customer's experience to the forum and, in particular, to Sage so that they can learn, improve and grow. If they're not listening to us, then we'll all suffer in the long run (if Sage dies as a company). The primary problem in this thread appears to be a Hauppauge problem, but if Sage wants to survive in a high-def/5.1 world, then they need to be more open with us about acknowledging problems and committing to resolving them. Unfortunately, they seem to be seriously constrained by Hauppauge in their abilities to resolve this problem.

I support you and everybody else on this forum and I support Sage and Hauppauge. I think we're all just using different methods of communicating in trying to achieve a common goal.

[jack_leach]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

It makes me wonder if there might be a common cause such as dirty power or something like that

Good observation, although all of my equipment has been on UPS from the beginning. My server has been rock solid and it's on the same UPS. My USB/UIRT problem was a mechanical problem with the mini-jack (for the external IR blaster). Sage never told me what was wrong with the HD-200, but they returned the same unit and I believe that they simply reloaded the firmware (something I tried unsuccessfully). It may be that the HD-PVR was the only electronic failure (Hauppauge sent a different replacement unit).

[Brent]

Jack,
This is mostly my opinion here but thought I'd throw it out there for good measure.

I don't think we'll ever see SageTV come out and say "Hauppauge device is bad - hang in there we're working with them on it" or anything like that. And I'm not positive they knew if there was an issue with SageTV in the matter so they wouldn't probably say anything in that situation.
They tell us anything that is useful and informative that they can I think, but when it comes to a certain 3rd party hardware device it might be comforting to hear something like that, I doubt it would be helpful really. Besides, its extremely difficult for them to know what is really causing the trouble here. Is it a bad device driver or a problem with a disc drive on the HTPC server or a IR conflict etc etc.

I think SageTV handles issues in this way. The user submit a trouble ticket (I recommend the user also posts on this forum to get input and help from other users at the same time), SageTV responds with any technical help they can give if any. Then behind the scenes they may begin working on a change in SageTV software or extender firmware that may help the situation or they may decide the problem isn't something they can fix on their end.

The forums are really meant as a means for users to communicate with each other as well as the occasional input from SageTV guys (including Opus, Narflex etc). I see way more input from SageTV employees on this forum than I do on Snapstream forums or GreenButton forums for example. So in the end I think SageTV is really ahead of the curve when it comes to communicating with its users here. It might not be to the degree we always want, but I do think they attempt to do what they can in that respect.

I don't mean to say you're wrong per se', but did want to put my perspective on this out here for what its worth. Trust me, I think the HD-PVRs are one of those devices that are so great when everything works (like it currently is for me), but they are so "sensitive" that I always have to put an asterisk next to all of my comments on the device because so many very experienced users have had so many problems with it. That is the real culprit here imo.

[reggie14]

I basically agree with Brent here. I think there's general agreement that the problems people are experiencing are with the HD-PVR itself (and its supporting drivers), not with Sage. I definitely agree companies should acknowledge problems with their products, but things get tricky when you're basically looking for one company to acknowledge problems with a partner company's product.

Hauppauge should really be the one to acknowledge the problem, not Sage. I'm sure Sage is "in-the-loop" on these problems, but they obviously wouldn't have as much information about the cause and remedies as Hauppauge. As such, I think it might be inappropriate for Sage to make comments about the quality of the product or the drivers (though, there's probably an opening there since Sage officially supports it and sells it). And, I think it is exceedingly unlikely that Hauppauge would come across this thread and post. I have the impression that Hauppauge support basically acknowledges some problems, but it would be nice if they could do it in some sort of public way (I'm not sure where or how they could do it).

[jack_leach]

Brent,
Those are all good comments and I appreciate them. When I look back to my initial research (looking for a replacement for my crappy Comcast DVR) I recall my enthusiasm when I discovered SageTV (and the HD-PVR) which appeared to be exactly what I was looking for. Even two months of daily reading on this forum didn't dissuade me from jumping in because for every problem I read about, I also read somebody else who had fixed that problem or wasn't experiencing the problem. It's easy to convince yourself that "I won't have those problems". I was looking for a high-def, surround sound, expandable storage, non-DRM PVR. I wasn't looking for a major hobby with lots of tweaking and that's why I've been so frustrated (and it's my own fault for "seeing what I wanted to see here"). I know this is ridiculous, but what I needed on the SageTV home page was a warning notice like this:

CAUTION: SageTV, in its current release, is attempting to support high-definition video with 5.1 surround sound using hardware provided by an unaffiliated company. Our software and their hardware should always be considered "beta" and will likely have assorted bugs and anomalies. Before purchasing this product you need to determine if you have the technical skills, patience and time to commit to an endeavor that will require considerable research combined with a great deal of trial-and-error attempts to resolve the many problems that you WILL encounter. Our software was originally written to support simple standard-def tuners and we are doing our best to continually modify this software to accommodate newer technologies.

Anyway, now I'm hallucinating and need to get back to the real world.

[Brent]

I hear you Jack and do understand. This is one of the reasons I haven't done a complete review of the HD-PVR device thus far because while I have had pretty good luck with it, I know there seem to be lingering problems people are experiencing so I didn't want to give the wrong impression to people.

Of all of my tuners the Hauppauge HD-PVR has been the weakest link when it comes to stability - partly because of the poor device drivers along the way and partly because of the IR blaster and cable box adding potential points of failure.

Even though I still consider it to be the least reliable "tuner" I currently use, it is pretty darn good for me at the moment thanks to:
1. SageTV/HD200's I think have improved in how they deal with it.
2. The latest HD-PVR driver really helped for me
3. I finally got firewire channel changing working which sped up the channel changes and made those channel changes 100% accurate unlike the IR blaster.

I still keep it on it's side in fear of overheating (never had that issue but never hurts to be safe). I also occasionally (very rarely) have an issue with the cable box either shutting off by itself. Other than those two things, I'm having excellent success and (knock on wood) expect it to perform very nicely in my setup alongside the 4 QAM and 2 Analog tuners. I hope my experience gives hope to those still having problems. I wish I could say "do this" and everyone would instantly have as good of luck as I'm currently having, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

[Brent]

Just so those of you SageTV guys don't feel alone, check out this thread for BeyondTV users on the HD-PVR. It definitely hasn't been smooth sailing for the HD-PVR across any HTPC software program. I think it's getting close to being a much more stable solution thanks to driver improvements though. Just though it might help put things in perspective by showing a competing HTPC program

[pawn]

I too had many problems getting up and running with the HD PVR. After dozens of hours (honest) of tweaking, switching hardware, giving up on one machine, then another and finally settling on a whole new machine to act as a network encoder, I finally got to something I would call "somewhat" reliable - one or the other of my HD PVR's locks up on average about once every 2 weeks requiring a power down and restart of the server (I can live with that).

The reason I never contacted Sage support is simple: I don't believe for an instant it has anything to do with Sage. The lockups happened right from the get go using the Avermedia Extremewhatever software, even in preview mode. I mean, I think it's a good assumption that SageTV interfaces with the HD PVR exactly how it interfaces with any capture device, so how could it be on their end?

I could be really wrong, but that's how I see it.

[Chriscic]

It's pretty much all been said, but I'll add my two cents anyway.

I don't blame Sage. Although they could "exceed expectations" by being more vocal on the issues, it's Hauppauge's fault... it's their hardware. I'm guessing Sage feels they wouldn't be a good partner if they air all of Hauppauge's dirty laundry.

As to what someone said about Hauppauge not knowing about this thread... if they don't, they've got their heads up their you-know-whats. In this day and age, if Hauppauge is too stupid to have someone occasionally google their products to see what the buzz is, then they really are sad.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

I don't blame Sage. Although they could "exceed expectations" by being more vocal on the issues, it's Hauppauge's fault... it's their hardware. I'm guessing Sage feels they wouldn't be a good partner if they air all of Hauppauge's dirty laundry.

While you know that I have a working HDPVR that is rock solid as compared to many others(may or may not be due to just using analog audio and a static output resolution), it is still my least stable tuner and I have to agree completely with this statement that Sage could not come out and state that the hardware has issues (regardless if it does or not). Sage relies on a strong partnership with Hauppauge. Could you imagine if Hauppauge wanted to release its next "greatest tuner ever", but because of a past strain they didn't let Sage get a hold of it ahead of time? BeyondTV, GBPVR, and Windows Media Center all got ahold of it and created support, but Sage didn't? Man talk about a death march eh?