An open letter to SageTV and Hauppauge management

[Taddeusz]

I wonder if this issue is a bit more broad than this. That the underlying hardware/firmware can't properly handle any momentary breaks in the AC3 stream. Of couse, the issue I've seen could just be the same issue. But I do wonder if the problem is actually more broad than Hauppauge is claiming.

[Skirge01]

Also, I just started running the 1.5.6 beta drivers yesterday and have not seen any new issues yet on either of my HD-PVRs.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I received a response from Hauppauge about my issue and the prognosis does not look good. The issue stems from a change in the audio stream going between stereo and Dolby Digital. The few times I've seen this first-hand have been during a commercial break on an "HD" channel that's being broadcast only in stereo. A commercial break will occur and one of the commercials will be in Dolby Digital. The HD-PVR apparently cannot handle this transition.

Hauppauge has stated that this is an issue with the chipset needing to be restarted when this occurs and there currently is not a fix for this. They are going to speak with ArcSoft about it, however.

I suggest you ask Hauppauge for further clarification if you are having real problems with this because SageTV's contacts at Hauppauge say that such an audio transition is automatically handled by the encoder, only causing a slight glitch in the recording, and does not result in a lockup. This isn't considered to be a problem because 1) it should only occur when switching between the show & commercials and 2) it shouldn't cause a lockup.

(After rereading the replies after the quoted post, I see that you may already know this, but I figured I'll go ahead with my reply just in case.)

- Andy

[Skirge01]

<snip>

Originally Posted by Opus4

This isn't considered to be a problem because 1) it should only occur when switching between the show & commercials and 2) it shouldn't cause a lockup.

(After rereading the replies after the quoted post, I see that you may already know this, but I figured I'll go ahead with my reply just in case.)

- Andy

While I agree with the thought process of it "should" only happen at those times, I did lay out some other theories as to when it could happen. I actually forgot about something until just now, although I did share this with Hauppauge. I had a major thunderstorm about 2 months ago and the satellite signal dropped out several times in a short period. The SPDIF HD-PVR stopped and started several times in just a few minutes, while the stereo HD-PVR kept on recording without interruption. Now that I say that, it leads me to believe the single lockup I had recently probably was unrelated to this hiccup issue. Damn... I thought I was down to only one problem!

I think I'm going to re-enable SPDIF on my other HD-PVR to double my chances of having issues.

[vikingisson]

I for one will not be buying any more H devices until the ones I've already bought start working more reliably. I've had the HD-PVR long enough now to experience the lockups or whatever is happening. The 1600 has been good but now is experiencing issues with the digital tuner at times requiring a shutdown to fix.

The drivers are pretty horrible and the bundled apps are terrible. The latest blaster driver is almost useless if you need to enter a manual code, an obvious bug. Joe six pack would never figure out the right combination of driver and app install to get it all working at the same time. I had it all working fine and then added the HD-PVR which worked nicely for a while until other things went crazy. So once again I start over piece by piece carefully installing, configuring, testing, until finally installing Sage. I don't dare touch anything once it is working. oops, need to reboot the HD-PVR.

I'm not scared of fiddling with the bits trying to get it working right but no way would I build one for a friend that doesn't have the patience to know what to do when things go wrong. I like what the HD-PVR does for me but hate the recording format that doesn't work properly over placeshifter/client. If I convert it to a format that does work the audio sync is wrong.

Bottom line is that I don't want to buy yet another device just to change channels because none of the 3 blaster choices I have might not work after the next update. I don't want to be forced to convert videos because they won't play on a client in the next room. I don't want to buy an extender when I don't even own a t.v. and prefer to use the client licenses I paid for.

I'm not as upset as it might seem, I like my SageTV. But I'm spending much more than I wanted to because certain things don't work properly and require more money to fix.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by Opus4

...because SageTV's contacts at Hauppauge say that such an audio transition is automatically handled by the encoder, only causing a slight glitch in the recording, and does not result in a lockup. This isn't considered to be a problem because 1) it should only occur when switching between the show & commercials and 2) it shouldn't cause a lockup."

Opus,
Can you share with us what Sage TV's contacts at Hauppauge say about the lockups?

Are they saying they don't exist, it's SageTVs fault, it's a hardware problem, it's a hardware problem but very rare, we're fixing the firmware, etc?

Thanks,
-Chris

[Skirge01]

I can certainly relate to yours and everyone else's frustration. In fact, I have spent many evenings and some entire weekends cursing Sage or Hauppauge. However, I was determined to take back control of my TV viewing and this was the only option available. I knew the work it would take and expected a lot of problems. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if another company releases a better, competing product, I'll jump ship in a heartbeat.

Regarding less skilled people using something like the HD-PVR or even Sage, I just don't feel they're the target market. These setups are intended for people with a fairly high level of computer knowledge and who enjoy tinkering. Everyone else will go for their TV provider's DVR, Tivo, or just stick to watching live TV.

At this point, while I'm still having the occasional problem, my two HD-PVRs are quite reliable and I'm very happy with them. Honestly, I think I had more problems with my DirecTV DVRs and Tivos. Most of the Tivo issues were hardware failures, so I made sure my Sage setup had quality parts. Most of the DirecTV issues were software issues or interface limitations, so I made sure I went with something I could customize like crazy and had no DRM for premium channels: Sage.

[Chriscic]

Skirge,
I'd say PC TV/digital entertainment isn't for anyone not skilled with PCs or eager to learn.

However, the issue with the HD-PVR is that it just plain doesn't work right for a lot of folks no matter what they do. This is very different than, for example, getting video to play back properly on a PC where codecs can be a pain... in that case, you CAN get it to work right if you know what you're doing.

I'm not sure there's any particular target market for products where some features consistently cause failures (5.1 audio) or is just plain broken, which seems to be the case here.

As I've said before, when the HD-PVR works it's a beautiful thing, which is why I've stuck with it despite all the migranes. But it sounds like you're implying the HD-PVR is "ok" because the issues can be worked around by some... no offense but I don't agree with that at all : ) On the other hand, even if the HD-PVR worked properly I do agree you wouldn't want a non-techie using it, and maybe that was your main point.

[vikingisson]

We understand that this isn't for newbies or at least not for people that refuse to learn. However I'd expect that I could give a working system to a newbie and have it work without them doing back flips on a regular basis. That's why we hire professionals to install a furnace, afterwards it simply works. The other thing is that even with some fiddling it should work as expected. HD without 5.1 audio is not acceptable if I see an S/PDIF connector (in my case S/PDIF is working and sometimes with 5.1).
I've fooled around with codecs trying to make video work on placeshifter for HD-PVR content. Client works but not placeshifter which means I'm out of luck on a linux client. I'm still holding out hope for the next beta. But it would be a lot easier if the box didn't output TS.
I'm sticking with it for now because I'll never buy into the locked proprietary systems like tivos and provider PVRs. But I've scratched the HDHR off my list until the other bits make me happier.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by vikingisson

... That's why we hire professionals to install a furnace, afterwards it simply works. ...

But I've scratched the HDHR off my list until the other bits make me happier.

To use your furnace analogy, refusing to consider SiliconDust's HDHR is sort of like refusing to consider buying a furnace because you are still having problems with your fireplace. The HDHR can only record OTA digital channels and clear QAM cable channels, but it is the most reliable tuner I've ever had on my system. The only time I have lost a recording from it was when there was some sort of bug in their system, but they fixed that right away. The HDHR, in my experience, simply works.

- Andy

[Chriscic]

Think he meant HD-PVR. The HDHR is not the device being slammed in this thread.

Also, any thoughts on my prior question on the lockups, or shall I interpret the silence as as answer? : )

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Skirge,
I'd say PC TV/digital entertainment isn't for anyone not skilled with PCs or eager to learn.

However, the issue with the HD-PVR is that it just plain doesn't work right for a lot of folks no matter what they do. This is very different than, for example, getting video to play back properly on a PC where codecs can be a pain... in that case, you CAN get it to work right if you know what you're doing.

I'm not sure there's any particular target market for products where some features consistently cause failures (5.1 audio) or is just plain broken, which seems to be the case here.

As I've said before, when the HD-PVR works it's a beautiful thing, which is why I've stuck with it despite all the migranes. But it sounds like you're implying the HD-PVR is "ok" because the issues can be worked around by some... no offense but I don't agree with that at all : ) On the other hand, even if the HD-PVR worked properly I do agree you wouldn't want a non-techie using it, and maybe that was your main point.

Before purchasing, I was well aware of all the problems people were having, as well as the DD issues (in fact, the DD was still in BETA at the time) and I purchased it anyway, fully expecting to have problems and needing to work through them and/or waiting for better drivers. If anyone purchased the unit not expecting to have problems, they didn't do enough research ahead of time and I think they need to accept part of the responsibility in purchasing a product that was already well known to have problems. Before anyone gets too upset at that statement, let me quickly follow up with this: Should the HD-PVR work perfectly out of the box? Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, YES! Does it? For some, yes. For others, no.

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Think he meant HD-PVR. The HDHR is not the device being slammed in this thread.

I thought he already had an HD-PVR and perhaps thought the HDHR was also made by Hauppauge since he sounded like he didn't want another Hauppauge tuner. But, maybe it was a typo.

Also, any thoughts on my prior question on the lockups, or shall I interpret the silence as as answer? : )

I only glanced at that earlier... but, yes, silence is pretty much my answer. I don't have anything definitive about it from Hauppauge. My HD-PVRs have now worked for 2 months w/o a lock (previous record was 1 week), but I'm trying not to say that too loudly or else they might hear me and lock up just to spite me.

- Andy

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by Chriscic

Want to make sure I'm clear about the issue. When you say the HD-PVR can't handle it and the chip needs to be restarted, exactly what end-behavior are you referring to? Is this where the HD-PVR will briefly stop (you can see the blue-lights on top turn off) and then restart in the middle of a recording? I think you said previously this was not causing lock-ups for you, so I think you're talking only about the little glitches and skips within recordings.

If the issue happens only when the audio stream changes, why would this cause glitches within the recordings outside of going to/returning from commercials?

Thanks for all the legwork and reporting; trying to understand better.

-Chris

I assume this is your "original question" you're referring to? If not, please repost it, since I think it got lost in this quite lengthy thread.

Can you give us some specifics on your setup and what exactly you're experiencing? Again, sorry if you already posted this and I missed it. I went back to page 4 and still didn't see the details of your issue.

[vikingisson]

Well then it is my fault since I did see mention of issues with the HD-PVR. But there were enough people saying that the beta drivers and current hardware rev was ok. Well I'm still a bit disappointed with things like lockups (only once so far since getting mine one week ago) and the inability to watch it over placeshifter.

The furnace analogy is valid in my opinion. If I had optioned some extras on my furnace and they didn't work right I wouldn't want to get another option (same manufacturer or not) even if everyone said it works without a problem. All part of the same system. It is the combination of pieces that sometimes causes issues. I had to go through Hauppauge IR blaster hell after updating seemingly unrelated parts of the system. Who knows if my fancy thermostat option won't kill my otherwise working fireplace.

So I'm not bashing the HDHR, I do see lots of praise for it, and it isn't made by Hauppauge. But for now I can't risk more problems with money I shouldn't be spending right now. I am upset about Hauppauge drivers. I'm not giving up on sage yet since it is still in beta.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by vikingisson

I had to go through Hauppauge IR blaster hell after updating seemingly unrelated parts of the system. Who knows if my fancy thermostat option won't kill my otherwise working fireplace.

I read the issues with the built-in blaster and had a USB-UIRT delivered even before the HD-PVR arrived. I'm not saying Hauppauge doesn't need to get the blaster working properly, but I was aware of the issue and--unlike many rightfully upset people--was also willing to throw money at the problem. I sure as heck shouldn't have needed to, but that was my personal solution.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by vikingisson

We understand that this isn't for newbies or at least not for people that refuse to learn. However I'd expect that I could give a working system to a newbie and have it work without them doing back flips on a regular basis. That's why we hire professionals to install a furnace, afterwards it simply works.

As much as SageTV progress over the years, it's not ready for everyone. If you don't want to install your own furnace or do back flips, then tivos and DVR boxes are the way to go. Although through the years with TV and internet, I have many issues with those services that were supposedly professionally installed. So professional installation doesn't always equal bulletproof operation when it comes to complicated stuffs.

The other thing is that even with some fiddling it should work as expected. HD without 5.1 audio is not acceptable if I see an S/PDIF connector (in my case S/PDIF is working and sometimes with 5.1).

It's first product of its kind. I'm surprised it works as well as it does, well not for some, but for most people.

I've fooled around with codecs trying to make video work on placeshifter for HD-PVR content. Client works but not placeshifter which means I'm out of luck on a linux client. I'm still holding out hope for the next beta. But it would be a lot easier if the box didn't output TS.

I agree, editing an H264 file is a b*tch. But then all the consumer HD camcorders out there also use H264.

I'm sticking with it for now because I'll never buy into the locked proprietary systems like tivos and provider PVRs. But I've scratched the HDHR off my list until the other bits make me happier.

Besides, what better ways to kill weekends then to fiddle with SageTV?

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I read the issues with the built-in blaster and had a USB-UIRT delivered even before the HD-PVR arrived. I'm not saying Hauppauge doesn't need to get the blaster working properly, but I was aware of the issue and--unlike many rightfully upset people--was also willing to throw money at the problem. I sure as heck shouldn't have needed to, but that was my personal solution.

ok fair enough but between an internal tuner with blaster, and HD-PVR with blaster, and an MCE USB receiver with blaster I would expect that one of them would be suitable without throwing yet more money at a problem that shouldn't be there. But I won't jinx it, the blaster is working once again. So until the next update of something else at least... I have one external device that needs tuning so another device just for tuning shouldn't be required.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

If anyone purchased the unit not expecting to have problems, they didn't do enough research ahead of time and I think they need to accept part of the responsibility in purchasing a product that was already well known to have problems.

Ok, I'll bite. So therefore what? Say I take responsibility for purchasing a product known to have potential problems. Are you saying I shouldn't try to share information to try and get it fixed, or I shouldn't complain about it? What's your point, aside from getting your fellow users to say their problems are their own fault?

I guess someone who gets mugged should also take some responsibility for being out too late. Ok, fine, but how is this relevant to a solution?

You've already made significant contributions on this topic, so I know you're not just trolling. You're just perplexing on this

Back to the topic, the fact that Opus isn't able to share any Hauppuage thoughts on the lockups (and you know they've been discussed with Sage) is just further confirmation that there's a hardware problem/high number of defective units and Hauppauge knows it but isn't going to come out and admit it, lest they be assaulted with return demands. On the plus side, I emailed Hauppauge and they are sending me a RMA# to exchange the less reliable of my two units. This will be my third RMA... hopefully after this round I will have two HD-PVRs I can live with. In that case, I'll be posting here less and I'm sure I will be missed

[vikingisson]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

As much as SageTV progress over the years, it's not ready for everyone. If you don't want to install your own furnace or do back flips, then tivos and DVR boxes are the way to go. Although through the years with TV and internet, I have many issues with those services that were supposedly professionally installed. So professional installation doesn't always equal bulletproof operation when it comes to complicated stuffs.

I am certainly not saying that a pro install is always better. Not in the least and certainly not the provider solutions from any choices I have for cable, sat, phone, etc. That is why I'm happy doing extra up front work to do it myself if in the end it works as advertised.
I don't have a cell phone or a landline for the same reasons, I built my own system but after a lot of learning and head banging it works very well and I rarely have to fool with it. I now enjoy much lower usage costs and all the features I could ever want and some that the providers don't offer at all. A home built PBX with lots of flexibility can be as complicated as a PVR.