An open letter to SageTV and Hauppauge management

[vikingisson]

Agreed, daily rebooting is not an option. Here's my dilemma, my boss wants a system and it will need an HD-PVR to pull an HD cable feed that he currently runs directly to the t.v.. The boss has zero patience and will expect to push a button and it just works. Any glitches or panic calls will have me wishing I had not done this at all. S/PDIF is also important to me, why go HD without proper sound? I've noticed that even on OTA the audio will change from 5.1, 7.1, and stereo depending on the source (between a show and commercial for example), that works perfectly now but if that doesn't work 99.9% of the time over the HD-PVR without a reboot or something else then I would have failed. it seems that the drivers are getting better all the time so I hope the trend continues by the time I buy one next month.

(FYI, the HD source will be digital Cogeco in Ontario if anyone has any gotcha stories)

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by Brent

I wonder what could be different between capturing from a DirecTV box versus a cable box though.

It may not be so much what's different... as what's common.

That's the HD-PVR.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I don't believe in reboots. At least, not to prevent a problem that may or may not happen. I have a server on a UPS for a reason: it's supposed to be UP!

You guys have to show a little sympathy here. The first month I used the HD-PVRs I was lucky to get over 2 hours of use a day without a reboot.

The HD-PVR made me more insecure about my recordings than any other device I've ever used in the last 5 years.

I am working my way to having the server on full time. I add to the ON time each week. I'll get there, HD-PVR permitting.

[cat6man]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

You guys have to show a little sympathy here. The first month I used the HD-PVRs I was lucky to get over 2 hours of use a day without a reboot.

The HD-PVR made me more insecure about my recordings than any other device I've ever used in the last 5 years.

I am working my way to having the server on full time. I add to the ON time each week. I'll get there, HD-PVR permitting.

amen!
my experience is the opposite of yours (maybe conservation of pain principle?.......for every person who gets their's to work there is someone else
with a working system that goes to pot)

my 2 hdpvr (c1 and d2) worked great for over 6 months with optical 5.1, solid as a rock, and now both my d2 units misbehave almost daily

i have to wonder if the fios 7100 stb got upgraded (euphemism intended) and screwed something up, but i haven't tracked stb f/w versions........i'm moving back to analog tonight to see if that makes a difference

i get the bouncing red recording light all the time (indicates that it hasn't locked properly to the input signal, i assume) recording with BTV.
the bouncing red light was also there during the 6+ months when the recordings were reliable, so that alone is not the problem.
also, when i record with TME, i never get the bouncing red light which seems to me to indicate that TME is going something in setting up a
recording that is getting missed otherwise

agreed...........the most frustrating product i've ever had in the system since i began recording with a pc many many years ago

[Brent]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

You guys have to show a little sympathy here.

Oh believe me, I do have sympathy for that. I was just saying that My HD-PVR would have been shipped back to Hauppauge if it meant I had to reboot all of the time - I have little patience for that and my wife has even less.

It seems like there ARE some good HD-PVRs out there including mine (knocking on my wood desk) and then some have the "lockup" issues. I'm surpised and disappointed there are still some out there that have that issue.

[Skirge01]

Personally, I think it's the signal. In my very unprofessional, and uneducated opinion regarding such matters, my logic dictates that the satellite stream is prone to more anomalies than the hard-wired signal from the cable company. While we may not be able to see or hear them, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't artifacts which play havoc with something like the HD-PVR.

[Skirge01]

One question for Helen & cat6man: DirecTV or cable?

My guess is you don't have DirecTV.

EDIT: I see cat6man mentioned a FIOS STB.

[kingwr]

It may also have something to do with the switching between satellites, at least in DirecTV.

As you move from older, non-HD channels, to MPEG-2 HD channels at the 110 satellite, to MPEG-4 channels on the 94 satellite, to local HD channels in the spot beams, it seems a lot of the DirecTV STBs have problems re-synching. I know if I am watching from my STB directly, I will get a brief "channel not purchased" or "searching for satellite signal" depending on what channels I move from and to. Sometimes I have to move forward, and then back to clear it.

With the output of the STB on a fixed resolution, this may not affect the video signal, however, the audio is re-synched each time, because it may be DD 5.1 or simply PCM stereo. One way to verify this may be to fix the optical out on the STB to PCM, and see if some of the lockups go away. If this is the case, then it may be the switch from PCM to DD 5.1 causing the lockup.

[Chriscic]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

See... now that really gets to me. From what I've read here on the forums, it seems like folks using a cable box with the HD-PVR seem to have much better luck getting DD, compared to DirecTV folks.

I've had tons of problems with Comcast and my HD-PVR.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

One question for Helen & cat6man: DirecTV or cable?

My guess is you don't have DirecTV.

Mine is DirecTV. During my first month of use, I did have a problem with a DTV receiver hooked up to one of the HD-PVRs. I removed the receiver and hooked up my Blu-ray player in it's place. I set up 3hrs of recordings in SageTV as if I still had the 2 DTV boxes connected, poped a 3hr movie in the BD player and recorded. No lockups on either HD-PVR.

Swapped the receiver with one in another room and problem went away.

I think Skirge01 is right that the HD-PVR doesn't handle signal issues well, whether the issue is with the satellite stream or the electronics in the Sat box.

The box I disconnected from the HD-PVR worked OK with my TV for almost a month then the YPbPr outputs failed and I had to replace the STB.

[jm9843]

Originally Posted by Brent

Once I get that figured out my HD-PVR should be as good as my beloved HDHR tuners (except for the slower IR blasting).

Still haven't implemented firewire channel changing yet? I just stumbled upon babgvant's FWChannelProxy dll today and I'm excited to replace the kludgy exeMultiTuner with it.

As for my HD-PVR, it is working 99% of the time with my Comcast stb set to native output resolution, 5.1 spdif, and with no other tricks employed (scheduled power-cycling, covering ir, etc). I am still using the first WHQL drivers that supported 5.1 ac3: 1.0.5.3

The only thing that is keeping it from 100% is that occasionally my HD200 will freeze on playback of an HD-PVR stream. It seems to occur after long (3+ hour) viewings, almost as if it's a glitch in the stream. In all but one instance, skipping ahead in the file resumed normal playback.

It's that 1% of the time that has me convinced to try the new beta 1.5.6 drivers, but it'll have to wait until after game 7 of the Penguins/Capitals series tonight. Go Pens!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by jm9843

Still haven't implemented firewire channel changing yet? I just stumbled upon babgvant's FWChannelProxy dll today and I'm excited to replace the kludgy exeMultiTuner with it.

Nope - It was on my list of "things to do" but every time I tried it I ran into that imaginary wall and gave up. Haven't had enough time to tinker with it since.

If anyone would like to come by my home in KC and give me a "how to set up firewire on GeekTonic's house" hands-on tutorial I'd be appreciative and reward you with plenty of beer and the GeekTonic Media Home Tour

[vikingisson]

ok, it is looking more positive but I'm not yet convinced that this is what the boss will be happy with. Personally I can't stand the locked down systems even if they 'just work', they never do what I want but they will do what the provider wants very well. This is why I don't have digital cable or a cell phone. I thought that if I build the system for him from sage that it might act like a proprietary box for ease of use and stability. Right now things work well with analog cable and ATSC on an internal card but starts to get more fussy with an STB and blaster. If it gets more tricky for the user with an HD-PVR then it won't fly. I can live with it myself but I can't live with an angry boss if he has issues.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

Mine is DirecTV. During my first month of use, I did have a problem with a DTV receiver hooked up to one of the HD-PVRs. I removed the receiver and hooked up my Blu-ray player in it's place. I set up 3hrs of recordings in SageTV as if I still had the 2 DTV boxes connected, poped a 3hr movie in the BD player and recorded. No lockups on either HD-PVR.

Swapped the receiver with one in another room and problem went away.

So, you're using DirecTV and DD via the 1.0.5.6 drivers and having no issues, but you're rebooting every day. Care to test things out by NOT rebooting for a while?

I think Skirge01 is right that the HD-PVR doesn't handle signal issues well, whether the issue is with the satellite stream or the electronics in the Sat box.

The box I disconnected from the HD-PVR worked OK with my TV for almost a month then the YPbPr outputs failed and I had to replace the STB.

Based on my testing thus far, I firmly believe that I'll be able to make my HD-PVR hiccup on command by the time my testing is complete. Once I have that evidence, I'll contact Hauppauge in the hopes that they'll be able to fix it via the drivers. The core of troubleshooting is ruling out variables and I'm getting closer. My theory is that either the DD stream itself is corrupt or the STB is causing corruption to the stream and the HD-PVR can't handle that corruption. I have two HD-PVR setups that I can swap things between to eventually find the actual culprit, but it takes time with a production system...

[vikingisson]

Based on my testing thus far, I firmly believe that I'll be able to make my HD-PVR hiccup on command by the time my testing is complete.

Please please report back to us what you find. This would be a deal killer for any system I'll build for other people. I use a good amp for audio so S/PDIF performance is also a must have.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

So, you're using DirecTV and DD via the 1.0.5.6 drivers and having no issues, but you're rebooting every day. Care to test things out by NOT rebooting for a while?

Can't you tell I live in fear of missing a recording? I got sooo much flack that first month from my family that I almost went back to s-video/stereo capture cards.

Back in September I only had my system up from 6PM to Midnight.
Now it's on from 2PM to 4AM. I'm adding an hour every week now.

[Taddeusz]

Wow! FWChannelProxy seems to work pretty well! Its greatly simplified FW channel changing for me. I'll have to check video output when I get home but I think its also actually correctly tuning using 3 digits. Before I had hacked together a batch file that would send preseding zeroes so that channel changes would be faster for one and two digit channels.

This makes things much cleaner. No need to be calling an external excecutable to change channels over FW.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Personally, I think it's the signal. In my very unprofessional, and uneducated opinion regarding such matters, my logic dictates that the satellite stream is prone to more anomalies than the hard-wired signal from the cable company. While we may not be able to see or hear them, that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't artifacts which play havoc with something like the HD-PVR.

Originally Posted by kingwr

It may also have something to do with the switching between satellites, at least in DirecTV.

As you move from older, non-HD channels, to MPEG-2 HD channels at the 110 satellite, to MPEG-4 channels on the 94 satellite, to local HD channels in the spot beams, it seems a lot of the DirecTV STBs have problems re-synching. I know if I am watching from my STB directly, I will get a brief "channel not purchased" or "searching for satellite signal" depending on what channels I move from and to. Sometimes I have to move forward, and then back to clear it.

With the output of the STB on a fixed resolution, this may not affect the video signal, however, the audio is re-synched each time, because it may be DD 5.1 or simply PCM stereo. One way to verify this may be to fix the optical out on the STB to PCM, and see if some of the lockups go away. If this is the case, then it may be the switch from PCM to DD 5.1 causing the lockup.

I was just going to say, when I reported issues to SageTV, I was told the HD PVR is "sensitive" to changes in the input stream while recording. This is why they recommended the delay after tuning setting, it gives the STB/stream time to settle down before the HD PVR tries to start recording.

After changing that, I've had no reliability issues with my HD PVR (on Dish, with S/PDIF).

[Skirge01]

I have no reliablility issues with channel changes (delay set to 4000), but I do still have them while a show is recording. I intend to keep the debug logging on until I get this nailed down or I find drivers that work. I'll just have to keep cleaing up the logs I don't need. I'm hoping I'll be able to spot precisely when and where the issue occurs by correlating the log files to a show and what was going on during the broadcast around that time. I suspect I'll see a drop in audio, a change to or from a commercial or a blip in the signal altogether within a few seconds of the log's "halt" message. If I can manage to identify such a thing, it should be quite easy to show Hauppauge the circumstances that cause the hiccup by providing them with the offending clip.

[cat6man]

do you mean hauppauge debug logging? if so, i've missed that and would love to know how to set it up.