Planning Ahead: What Can Go Wrong w/Sage?

[PeteCress]

Seems like losing the electronic program guide became a non-issue with creation of a plug-in (whose announcement post I cannot find at the moment) that connects to SchedulesDirect.

So: Besides HD200 failure, what's between me and running SageTV on an XP box until I get too senile to change channels?

One thing that comes to mind is additional client licenses - as HD200's fail and need tb replaced with PCs....

[gplasky]

So let's make it easy.

What can't you buy now?
1. Hardware-HD300, HD200, HD100 (Except for used.) Wireless adapters, remotes. Anything Sage specific that was carried by the Sage store.
2. Software Licenses-no new Server license (SageTV Media Center). no new PC Client licenses, no new Placeshifter licenses.
3. No new tuner support-Going forward you will probably not see brand new tuners being supported.

What can you upgrade?
Anyone running an existing v5 or a v6 SageTV can use the last release (v7.19) and do a full software upgrade. Then replace the existing V7 EXE files for SageTV.exe and SageTVService.exe with the corresponding ones inside the zip files attached to this message. If you have an existing V5 or V6 key, then V7 will function for you properly.

What else can go wrong?
1. EPG? We're good for a year as is. (give or take) A Scedules Direct Plugin works in theory. XMLTV Import Tool for Sage from StephaneM has worked since version 6. Updated XMLTVHere's another one that should work.
2. YouTube or Google Videos. In the past changes have happened where the STV needed to be updated to fix the issues. This is a question that can only be answered by Sage or Opus 4 but for now I would consider this could reach a point of breaking and not being able to be fixed. Unless it can be done in Studio it is a core fix. (Correct me if I'm wrong and I can update this.)
3. Plugin Repository. There is already a solution out there that works as a replacement.


I'll add more as I have time.

Gerry

[reggie14]

Well, you're not going to get any new tuner support. That's not a problem in the short-run, but could be a problem in the long-run.

In general, you'll want to keep your system as close as it is today as possible. You're probably safe doing OS upgrades on XP, since they're basically just doing security fixes at this point. I'd be nervous about driver upgrades on tuners.

From what I understand, changes to daylight savings time could screw up Sage. But, I don't think anyone is seriously pushing for another change.

I'm not sure if there are any issues with decoders. It seems like Sage had to do some things to get certain decoders to work with Sage. Back when I was still running PC-based clients I had problems getting CoreAVC to work with Sage until they made some sort of change in the software. Again, this isn't a problem in the short-term, but it could be in the long run.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Well, you're not going to get any new tuner support. That's not a problem in the short-run, but could be a problem in the long-run.

In general, you'll want to keep your system as close as it is today as possible. You're probably safe doing OS upgrades on XP, since they're basically just doing security fixes at this point. I'd be nervous about driver upgrades on tuners.

From what I understand, changes to daylight savings time could screw up Sage. But, I don't think anyone is seriously pushing for another change.

I'm not sure if there are any issues with decoders. It seems like Sage had to do some things to get certain decoders to work with Sage. Back when I was still running PC-based clients I had problems getting CoreAVC to work with Sage until they made some sort of change in the software. Again, this isn't a problem in the short-term, but it could be in the long run.

Daylight changes needed updates either to the core OS or to java. I don't recall that Sage itself needed an update.

For the most part the standard decoders that come with Windows 7 handles almost all of the video decoding and well.

I added the no new tuners to the above.

Gerry

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by gplasky

I added the no new tuners to the above.

Does using Silicon Dust HD HomeRun (LAN-based) tuners put me in any better of a position than if I were using PC-based tuner cards?

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Does using Silicon Dust HD HomeRun (LAN-based) tuners put me in any better of a position than if I were using PC-based tuner cards?

I don't think it really matters what you use today. Presumably you're using things that work with Sage today, and that's what's important. The potential problem is that in 5 years you might not be able to buy a supported tuner/capture device anymore.

That being said, I sort of suspect the HDHR devices will lead to less problems down the line. I think they do a bit more in firmware than the PCI-e based cards, which makes them more of a separate entity from your Sage server. Purely a guess, but I suspect that will mean software updates to the HDHR will be less likely to create problems with Sage. But more significantly, the HDHR tuners have always been more reliable in Sage.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I don't think it really matters what you use today. Presumably you're using things that work with Sage today, and that's what's important. The potential problem is that in 5 years you might not be able to buy a supported tuner/capture device anymore.

That being said, I sort of suspect the HDHR devices will lead to less problems down the line. I think they do a bit more in firmware than the PCI-e based cards, which makes them more of a separate entity from your Sage server. Purely a guess, but I suspect that will mean software updates to the HDHR will be less likely to create problems with Sage. But more significantly, the HDHR tuners have always been more reliable in Sage.

Any tuners that DO come along down the road could most likely be worked into a network encoder or a tuner plugin, so no changes would be required in the sage core.

[BobbyDing]

What else can go wrong?

The loss of these forums would be VERY bad, as they contain years of tips, tricks and fixes that are invaluable (even to experienced users). We know it will remain at least until June 2012. No commitments after that yet. It would be nice if Google would allow them to be moved/hosted elsewhere should they decide to close them. Maybe also offer them on a DVD (a downloadable ISO)? It would be devistating for it to just disappear.

Bobby

[BobbyDing]

Sorry, I just saw that topic is well covered:

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56595

Bobby

[mkanet]

The first feature to go (and already did happen) is Youtube videos.

It no longer works on sageTV software clients; and, on HD200/HD300s, only low resolution videos seem to be available. This, of course, affects plugins that revolve around youtube search as well. I'm not sure if this can be patched via a plugin or not. It looks like people are just starting to notice that it broke.

[wayner]

Another problem may be replacing tuners when they die in the future. Let's say you have a system with HD-PVRs and they die five years from now. By then the HD-PVR will likely not be sold and the HD-PVR (or Colussus) V3 will be available but it may not work in Sage.

That's why I posted a thread in the hardware forum asking if it was paranoid to start buying a backup of all of your hardware in Sage today - stuff like tuners and USB-UIRTs.

[Savage1701]

Yes, I figured some of the first things to "break" would be something like YouTube videos. Not a huge loss to me since I don't really watch them.

More to my concern is what if something changes in Java that needs to be "patched" or whatever in Sage code itself? I remember at one point The Weather Channel changed how it sent out its data and MediaPortal could not handle the simple change until it was re-coded for that new format. If memory serves, it took a while. Granted, MP is open source, but it's a core feature on its main screen.

XP is surely static, as is Vista. Win 7 is probably fine, but SP1 did screw up video for a lot of people. Also, video driver updates concern me as those happen quite frequently with all the games they patch and such.

I have some concern when Java has a large version upgrade or adds some major features that Sage can't compensate for on its own.

We will know because at some point when these sorts of things begin to accumulate and running Sage becomes more and more of a kluge and lese and less of an integrated, stable convenience, the price of Sage items on Ebay will begin to fall and/or more sellers will show up. Of course, by then the Google van will have pulled up to your home and given you that 1Gb/s ISP service...to "The Cloud"...for free...while in beta...

Just wait until someone takes a real hatin' to Google's cloud and gives it the ol' PS3 attacks Sony went through this spring. Can you imagine people being without HD cable/media/music/integration for MONTHS?, not to mention the basic ability of the unit to log in and play something? My son and I had real problems playing games and such and we are undemanding PS3 users. On a more humerous note, do you think Brin and Page will bow and apologize and offer to resign?

Given that licenses and such are being auctioned, apparently whatever lawsuit threats were made were found to be meaningless. There have been several client and server licenses being sold of late.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

Given that licenses and such are being auctioned, apparently whatever lawsuit threats were made were found to be meaningless. There have been several client and server licenses being sold of late.

Here's the latest eBay update: HD300s are selling for about $300, HD200s are selling for about $150. Sage Client licenses for about $70. HD100s don't seem to be selling well at all.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

Yes, I figured some of the first things to "break" would be something like YouTube videos. Not a huge loss to me since I don't really watch them.

More to my concern is what if something changes in Java that needs to be "patched" or whatever in Sage code itself? I remember at one point The Weather Channel changed how it sent out its data and MediaPortal could not handle the simple change until it was re-coded for that new format. If memory serves, it took a while. Granted, MP is open source, but it's a core feature on its main screen.

XP is surely static, as is Vista. Win 7 is probably fine, but SP1 did screw up video for a lot of people. Also, video driver updates concern me as those happen quite frequently with all the games they patch and such.

I have some concern when Java has a large version upgrade or adds some major features that Sage can't compensate for on its own.

We will know because at some point when these sorts of things begin to accumulate and running Sage becomes more and more of a kluge and lese and less of an integrated, stable convenience, the price of Sage items on Ebay will begin to fall and/or more sellers will show up. Of course, by then the Google van will have pulled up to your home and given you that 1Gb/s ISP service...to "The Cloud"...for free...while in beta...

Just wait until someone takes a real hatin' to Google's cloud and gives it the ol' PS3 attacks Sony went through this spring. Can you imagine people being without HD cable/media/music/integration for MONTHS?, not to mention the basic ability of the unit to log in and play something? My son and I had real problems playing games and such and we are undemanding PS3 users. On a more humerous note, do you think Brin and Page will bow and apologize and offer to resign?

Given that licenses and such are being auctioned, apparently whatever lawsuit threats were made were found to be meaningless. There have been several client and server licenses being sold of late.

If you are concerned with java updates on your server and client.. just don't update them.. same with OS upgrades.

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

If you are concerned with java updates on your server and client.. just don't update them.. same with OS upgrades.

Yeah, certainly with XP I could get away with that.

I should have phrased that concern more carefully, for example:

MSFT now requires Win 7 SP1 to validate correctly or some such thing, for example. Or it adds security permissions that interfere with Sage's. Then, for good measure, toss on a major Java update needed to work with Win 7 SP1 with the new gee-whiz security and validation features. Again - the fear is a REQUIRED upgrade that ends up breaking sage. Not just the Malicious Software Removal update of the month or some junk like that I can pass on.

That's more my fear - Sage gets hit with collateral damage from something deeply necessary for the OS to run. Again, probably not going to happen with XP or even Vista, but Win 7 possible.

Also, it's starting to become more common to see some of the newer motherboards disclaim certain aspects of XP compativility. That's only going to increase in frequency. That's a trickle right now, but it will increase. Much like trying to find a MB with a floppy port and/or an IDE port, things XP just assumes are there and can be hard to get around.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

MSFT now requires Win 7 SP1 to validate correctly or some such thing, for example. Or it adds security permissions that interfere with Sage's.

This is not correct. There are only certain situations that a current Windows 7 pre-SP1 would require activation. I can confirm this because I have various machines running without SP1.

Will I ever need to activate my current copy of Windows again?

Maybe. You might have to activate Windows again if:

•You uninstall Windows on one computer and install it on another. During installation, enter the product key that came with your copy of Windows. If automatic activation fails, follow the instructions that walk you through activating Windows by phone. You will have 30 days to activate your copy of Windows.

•You make a significant hardware change to your computer, such as upgrading the hard disk and memory at the same time. If a major hardware change requires activating Windows again, you will be notified and will have three days to activate your copy of Windows.

•You reformat your hard disk. Reformatting erases your activation status. In this case, you’ll have 30 days to activate Windows again.

•A virus infects your computer and deletes your activation status.

If you have to activate Windows again, you don't need to buy a new product key.

To activate Windows on this computer, do the following:

Open Windows Activation by clicking the Start button , right-clicking Computer, clicking Properties, and then clicking Activate Windows now.* If you are prompted for an administrator password or confirmation, type the password or provide confirmation

There was a bug/glitch early on with SP1 that may have caused Windows to want to reactivate. This was subsequently fixed.

-------- WORK Around --------

Yup, we, The NAVHARCH Group | INDIA, India’s only Premium Support Provider, confirm that this is an Issue with Service Pack 1 Update. However,
end user would only notice it if the system is on for 3+ hrs. We are rigorously working to find out what has triggered this behaviour. Our Sp1 upgrades were performed on 2 machines (Laptop &;;amp;;;;;;;;; Desktop x86 &;;amp;;;;;;;;; x64 respectively) not too long ago, this message issue occurred on 19th March for the first time on our Systems.

As of now we are researching for resolutions &;;amp;;;;;;;;; have found 1 which should work for most Genuine Windows Users.

1. Pressing the Win Logo + Pause button on Keyboard shows the System Properties, &;;amp;;;;;;;;; when the Windows Activation field is populated at the bottom, &;;amp;;;;;;;;; if it says the Windows is Activated, the message appearing on the Desktop (Windows 7601. This copy of windows is not genuine) disappears automatically only to appear next time after restart. (Work Around tested successfully on Genuine MSDN Licensed version of Windows.) A Video displaying the issue &;;amp;;;;;;;;; Work around is being produced as we write this out.

NOTE: This will not work on systems which get a message dispalying Days to activate windows. Same issue was with SP1 of Vista when OEM systems were locked up due to non activation after SP1 Upgrade.

2. Reactivate the Windows with the Genuine Product Key ( This resolution is yet to be confirmed ).

Users, Please confirm if this solves the issue temporarily as we notify MS about the Glitch.

If you have your Sage server used more like an appliance and once you have a working setup and are happy with it you could stop all updates to that computer including service packs, ms security patches, drivers for hardware, java, etc today and it will continue to function until you decide to turn it off. I have run Sage both bleeding edge and also without having the latest service pack both for XP and Windows 7. It just runs without issue. (And these are not virtual machines but actual physical machines.)

Gerry

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by gplasky

This is not correct. There are only certain situations that a current Windows 7 pre-SP1 would require activation. I can confirm this because I have various machines running without SP1.



There was a bug/glitch early on with SP1 that may have caused Windows to want to reactivate. This was subsequently fixed.


If you have your Sage server used more like an appliance and once you have a working setup and are happy with it you could stop all updates to that computer including service packs, ms security patches, drivers for hardware, java, etc today and it will continue to function until you decide to turn it off. I have run Sage both bleeding edge and also without having the latest service pack both for XP and Windows 7. It just runs without issue. (And these are not virtual machines but actual physical machines.)

Gerry

It was an HYPOTHETICAL example of something that concerns me that COULD break Sage, in keeping with the thread. According to some, it's already broke with YouTube. Given that YouTube, is, well, YouTube, anyone with more than a brain stem could have figured that would be a front-line trouble spot.

Read the post. It says, "for example". I know how/when/why Windows validates (often for very poor reasons). In the dozen or so years I've been building systems I've spent a lot of time on help lines doing some weird stuff to get it to validate. XP went through a huge issue a few years ago with forced validations. You're naive if you don't think it's POSSIBLE it can happen again.

Of course I treat my Sage Server like an appliance. I have a bare metal backup with a few essential utilities and such. I don't update a/v drivers or video card drivers or anything.

I ghost my sage server 2x per day to 2 different drives, and my wiz/properties files 6x per day so if I decide to try letting XP update I know if it FUBAR's it I can go back.

Again, in keeping with the thread, it was a statement of AN EXAMPLE, not an actuality. And again, it's the big parts Sage is now at the mercy of, such as a YouTube or whatever, that concern me the most. Or that Sage turns into some total kluge needing all these old drivers and such if one decides to do a re-install. But, low and behold, not every site keeps a driver repository of all drivers for their cards, tuners, etc. forever. I have some great K-World ATSC 110 cards that don't even have decent drivers available for them. It's not the card or the hardware or the PCI slot that's doing them in, for example.

It will happen. Sage will turn into more and more of a kluge. As I said in another post, you will know when the scales have tipped because more and more Sagers will be dumping their hardware and software on Ebay, rather than a few getting 2x-3x what an HD300 cost prior to the sale.

[gplasky]

I understand it was an example. I also understand how a simple statement said as a joke creates an uproar and threads asking, for example, if it is true extenders will just stop working at some future date. I don't think we need to fuel the fire so if you want to use an example it would be more accurate to use an example rooted in reality. That way we can reduce some of the static and FUD on the forum. Like I said if anyone's fear is that Sage will stop working because of updates to OS, java, drivers or anything along those lines then just stop updating. It could continue to run for many years.

Gerry

Gerry

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by gplasky

I understand it was an example. I also understand how a simple statement said as a joke creates an uproar and threads asking, for example, if it is true extenders will just stop working at some future date. I don't think we need to fuel the fire so if you want to use an example it would be more accurate to use an example rooted in reality. That way we can reduce some of the static and FUD on the forum. Like I said if anyone's fear is that Sage will stop working because of updates to OS, java, drivers or anything along those lines then just stop updating. It could continue to run for many years.

Gerry

Gerry

Well, my example is rooted in reality - past behaviors of Mr. Softy. Java has issued updates that require Sage updates or function strangely with it. YouTube is already failing according to some. I cited the example of The Weather Channel changing how they sent out their weather data and the homescreen of MediaPortal could not handle it any more. MP users back then went without a core screen/part of MP for months.

If you are just talking extenders, and a server, you are probably right. I have an extender and 2 clients. I seem to be in the same area as many here - was going to swap out my clients for HD300's as I could afford it, but now am stuck.

What about clients and placeshifters? Now at some point these users get to make a choice - do I want to do that Java update so my other important programs run, or do I turn this PC into a dedicated Sage Client? What if that client also is a SOHO computer? I watch Bloomberg on my client on my work computer. It's not in my living room under my TV.

What about never updating a mobile PC with a placeshifter app? Are you going to lug 2 computers around now when you travel?

Are you never going to update your video driver, audio driver, etc. on those machines? What if you get a new video card or audio card because you have to, and those software suites require a version of something Sage Client or PS uses but can't handle the newest version of? Pray for a Plugin?

The title of the thread is "...:What can go wrong w/Sage?". These are legitimate, big-picture issues that could cripple anyone who is not solely on Extenders and a Server. And even then, if you are on such a setup, you still at some point leave your Sage Server vulnerable when XP stops giving out security updates or a new version of your A/V software comes out that requires updates, if you use such a program? Vista and Win 7 users will be more fortunate, but that possibility of a security break for them still exists if they refuse to update.

Why not start your own thread called "How To Keep Sage An Appliance For As Long As Possible"?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

Well, my example is rooted in reality - past behaviors of Mr. Softy. Java has issued updates that require Sage updates or function strangely with it. YouTube is already failing according to some. I cited the example of The Weather Channel changing how they sent out their weather data and the homescreen of MediaPortal could not handle it any more. MP users back then went without a core screen/part of MP for months.

If you are just talking extenders, and a server, you are probably right. I have an extender and 2 clients. I seem to be in the same area as many here - was going to swap out my clients for HD300's as I could afford it, but now am stuck.

What about clients and placeshifters? Now at some point these users get to make a choice - do I want to do that Java update so my other important programs run, or do I turn this PC into a dedicated Sage Client? What if that client also is a SOHO computer? I watch Bloomberg on my client on my work computer. It's not in my living room under my TV.

What about never updating a mobile PC with a placeshifter app? Are you going to lug 2 computers around now when you travel?

Are you never going to update your video driver, audio driver, etc. on those machines? What if you get a new video card or audio card because you have to, and those software suites require a version of something Sage Client or PS uses but can't handle the newest version of? Pray for a Plugin?

The title of the thread is "...:What can go wrong w/Sage?". These are legitimate, big-picture issues that could cripple anyone who is not solely on Extenders and a Server. And even then, if you are on such a setup, you still at some point leave your Sage Server vulnerable when XP stops giving out security updates or a new version of your A/V software comes out that requires updates, if you use such a program? Vista and Win 7 users will be more fortunate, but that possibility of a security break for them still exists if they refuse to update.

Why not start your own thread called "How To Keep Sage An Appliance For As Long As Possible"?

Yes, there are software/java/os updates that could break sage... the point here is that non of them are mandatory.