Stay or Bail ?

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by SomeWhatLost

in 1.5 years, will myth actually be any better than Sage currently is today? will they have real hardware extenders?

since when did Sage magically become obsolete? when did this happen? why doesn't anyone tell me about these things?

so, if Sage is obsolete, that means there is something better out there right now... any chance someone will tell me what it is? I actually am eager to jump ship, but so far it looks like if I jump ship the only option is to drown in the sea of mediocre, at best, Sage replacements?

my take on what is currently available:
DVBViewer - not an option for me
MCE - so crippled as to be useless
BTV - dead
MediaPortal - looks like if they ever finished it it could be great someday... (note this is pretty much the same opinion I had when I looked at MP last... like 5-10 years ago when I was looking for a myHTPC replacement... when was myHTPC last active?) will MP ever be finished? will they ever release something that isn't still under construction? seems they just like to add new stuff without ever actually finishing the old stuff... is MP the Duke Nukem Forever of PVR's?
nPVR - maybe someday... has possibilities... needs up to date (preferably purpose built for nPVR) hardware extenders...
JRiver - don't think they are doing much in the PVR realm, but they could be great... they came out with their own music extender, hopefully that's going good for them, maybe they can come out with a good video extender and a PVR back end?
mythTV - my brain explodes every time I think of trying to setup myth... no hardware extenders...
xbmc - (see MP, just not quite as bad)

Agree. BTV is dead in the water. MCE is junk. I have used MediaPortal on and off for about 5 years. Your commentary about it is dead-on accurate. The little exposure I have had to nPVR leaves me with some of the same impressions - it COULD be a contender. So COULD MP if it ever stopped contemplating its navel.

[SomeWhatLost]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Was BeyondTV the one that phoned home every time it was started to authenticate the application license - and which application could not be run if the authentication server was down or the user's internet connection was down?

Was it also the one that created it's recording files with a proprietary suffix?

I'm pretty sure I demo'd a product that was guilty on both counts...

nope,
or at least I don't think so...
files saved were normal mgeg or .ts, etc... nothing fancy there, Sage could play them when I switched from BTV...
as for phone home... maybe, I don't really recall... could be... but Snapstream is still there, so their servers are still there... so that's a non issue...

hey I just thought of something... I still own a BTV & BTV link license... they have EPG for life (well for Snapstreams life at any rate), anyway I can get sage to use their EPG data? that would get me EPG data for free....

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by SomeWhatLost

files saved were normal mgeg or .ts, etc...

I am pretty sure they use .tp not .ts

Martin

[SomeWhatLost]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I am pretty sure they use .tp not .ts

Martin

you could be correct... been a while since I ran BTV... but sage did import and play them... so they cant be all that strange...

[hockeyfan]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

What have you come up with so far client-hardware-wise? Something like this: http://tinyurl.com/3b244zr ?

Do you have experience with Myth? Before finding out about SageTV, I fooled around with MythTV for several months and never managed to get it working reliably. Others love it and report no problems. For me it was like a part-time job. I suspect most of my problems were security-related.

I like that box without the fan. So far I'm leaning towards this, that has a fan.

http://www.memoryexpress.com/Product...6%28ME%29.aspx

Before I used Sage TV I used MCE. The main reason I cut over was for the HD. MS didn't support it. It took awhile to get used to how Sage was but in the end we preferred it.

When I first started using MCE I worked with a lot of engineers who ran MythTV. So I always heard about what it can do and was doing for them. I've ran Linux servers at home before. I guess it didn't have the hardware support I needed back then. Now it's looking better. I am the type who would prefer to run a windows server. It's easier to run other types of software on the server as well, with linux you're more handcuffed to what is available.

[hockeyfan]

Originally Posted by SomeWhatLost

in 1.5 years, will myth actually be any better than Sage currently is today? will they have real hardware extenders?

since when did Sage magically become obsolete? when did this happen? why doesn't anyone tell me about these things?

so, if Sage is obsolete, that means there is something better out there right now... any chance someone will tell me what it is? I actually am eager to jump ship, but so far it looks like if I jump ship the only option is to drown in the sea of mediocre, at best, Sage replacements?

my take on what is currently available:
DVBViewer - not an option for me
MCE - so crippled as to be useless
BTV - dead
MediaPortal - looks like if they ever finished it it could be great someday... (note this is pretty much the same opinion I had when I looked at MP last... like 5-10 years ago when I was looking for a myHTPC replacement... when was myHTPC last active?) will MP ever be finished? will they ever release something that isn't still under construction? seems they just like to add new stuff without ever actually finishing the old stuff... is MP the Duke Nukem Forever of PVR's?
nPVR - maybe someday... has possibilities... needs up to date (preferably purpose built for nPVR) hardware extenders...
JRiver - don't think they are doing much in the PVR realm, but they could be great... they came out with their own music extender, hopefully that's going good for them, maybe they can come out with a good video extender and a PVR back end?
mythTV - my brain explodes every time I think of trying to setup myth... no hardware extenders...
xbmc - (see MP, just not quite as bad)

When I say that it is obsolete I am referring to the fact that after the 1 year period you are at the mercy of the update and hope that nothing breaks.

For me to say it's obsolete now is premature. However, I am forward thinking. Any of us can see the end date of this thing.

Now... I could be wrong and go through all this effort and Google turns around and releases Sage 8 that works like Sage 7 but better (one can only hope). But in the mean time I am *assuming* this is not the case and looking at a contingency plan. I think it's only prudent.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by hockeyfan

When I say that it is obsolete I am referring to the fact that after the 1 year period you are at the mercy of the update and hope that nothing breaks.

For me to say it's obsolete now is premature. However, I am forward thinking. Any of us can see the end date of this thing.

Now... I could be wrong and go through all this effort and Google turns around and releases Sage 8 that works like Sage 7 but better (one can only hope). But in the mean time I am *assuming* this is not the case and looking at a contingency plan. I think it's only prudent.

mercy of what update in a year? Nothing on your sage server has to change between now and the time tv stops being broadcast if you choose.

[hockeyfan]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

mercy of what update in a year? Nothing on your sage server has to change between now and the time tv stops being broadcast if you choose.

I agree with you, should you choose to not update your system. Unfortunately on my system I will be applying all updates, always. Since I choose to do that it puts my system at risk of being broken.

[rhinoman]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

mercy of what update in a year? Nothing on your sage server has to change between now and the time tv stops being broadcast if you choose.

The only issue I forsee is when we get HD terrestrial in my area of the UK next year and the tuner cards will be unsupported.

[speck55]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Have you ever put a power meter on the Minis?

Specs say something like "Up to 89 watts...." but that seems excessive for something that small/quiet.

I'm wondering how they stack up against the 5-6 watts that HD200/300's draw.

No, but I've been meaning to buy a Kill-A-Watt for many reasons (including diagnosing why I have between a $300 and $500 a month utility bill ). I'm quite sure the draw from the moving drive, would be 5-6 watts alone. Plus the PPC chips weren't exactly the most efficient anyways. Toss in chipsets, onboard video, and I don't think it will match the HD2/300 in any way. Ahh those were the days. Sleek, sleek, HD300s. LOL.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by rhinoman

The only issue I forsee is when we get HD terrestrial in my area of the UK next year and the tuner cards will be unsupported.

I'm betting DVBViewer will work with your new broadcasts, and as such, will work in sage. Which brings to mind, that ANY non-DRM source can work with sage via plugins, even if sage never makes any more changes.

[Fonceur]

Originally Posted by emveepee

I am pretty sure they use .tp not .ts

There has been many file extensions used for transport streams, as an early adopter they simply ended up with one that wasn't the one that emerged as the most popular (.ts). That's not in the same league as say MCE recording to a proprietary format...

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by speck55

No, but I've been meaning to buy a Kill-A-Watt for many reasons (including diagnosing why I have between a $300 and $500 a month utility bill ). I'm quite sure the draw from the moving drive, would be 5-6 watts alone. Plus the PPC chips weren't exactly the most efficient anyways. Toss in chipsets, onboard video, and I don't think it will match the HD2/300 in any way. Ahh those were the days. Sleek, sleek, HD300s. LOL.

The Kill-A-Watt is totally worth it. I use it on systems all the time, especially when the PDU controlling them does not report the current draw.

It's sort of scary when you see how much some of this stuff draws, even when monitors are "asleep", unless they are the newest of the new and really only draw a tiny amount when asleep.

I think Tom's Hardware had a 29-watt idle H55/Intel mini or micro system, but I don't know what it drew when you kicked up the video.

Again, no doubt way more than the sub-10 watt extenders.

I had nasty bills like that. We also air condition, so the electric company gets us coming and going - high-draw computer systems and then A/C to cool all the waste heat they throw off (I think a computer is like a light bulb - about 5% efficient, the rest going to heat).

[speck55]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

The Kill-A-Watt is totally worth it. I use it on systems all the time, especially when the PDU controlling them does not report the current draw.

It's sort of scary when you see how much some of this stuff draws, even when monitors are "asleep", unless they are the newest of the new and really only draw a tiny amount when asleep.

I think Tom's Hardware had a 29-watt idle H55/Intel mini or micro system, but I don't know what it drew when you kicked up the video.

Again, no doubt way more than the sub-10 watt extenders.

I had nasty bills like that. We also air condition, so the electric company gets us coming and going - high-draw computer systems and then A/C to cool all the waste heat they throw off (I think a computer is like a light bulb - about 5% efficient, the rest going to heat).

Especially the system I have running 24x7 with 2xGTX480's in it - I really should buy a tiny server for the stuff this box provides, and power the "monster" machine off except when gaming.

I also have a 120 gallon saltwater tank, with almost 600W in T5 flouresent lighting. And of course the pumps, etc.

I did have a scary moment -- I had a fridge that was about to burn down the house. I happen to put my hand on top of the fridge as I was having a conversation with someone and it was hot to the touch. Didn't see anything obstructing the vents at the bottom, and it was an oldie (came with house) so I bought a new LG with the linear compressor "scratch and dent" (not sure because the only scratch or dent it has on it is one I put in it whilst being too cheap to pay for delivery. Anyways, we pulled the old one out, and there was a scorcher running up the wall. Hours later the drywall was too hot to touch still. A bigger fridge, with the temp set very very low for both freezer (-3 f) and fridge (34 f) and that change dropped $100+ off the electric the first full month and it's stayed off.

I switched to a high efficiency pair for washer and drier and WOW what a difference in the time it takes to wash and dry a load (the HE washer spins the stuff pretty much dry!), and the electricity and gas both went down a LOT (lots of laundry b/c of 2 kids, one of which generates at least a set of bed linens and quilt to be washed every morning. ).

Anyways, back on topic... the kill-a-watt -- is it reliable? Ever had any problems with it? They seem pretty inexpensive. I suppose I could rig something and use my digital ammeter, but that has potential for disaster.

[SomeWhatLost]

I like my kill o watt thingy... very useful when building systems & stuff to verify the power needed matches with the power used....

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

I think Tom's Hardware had a 29-watt idle H55/Intel mini or micro system, but I don't know what it drew when you kicked up the video.

My i3 with it's original (and now blown up) power supply:

On/Idle  = 46W
HD MPEG2 = 57W
SD MPEG2 = 50W
HD H.264 = 56W
BluRay   = 55W
S3 Sleep = 2.2W
S4/Off   = 0.4W

I plan on running a new series of checks when I get the new, somewhat better, power supply put in.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

My i3 with it's original (and now blown up) power supply:

On/Idle  = 46W
HD MPEG2 = 57W
SD MPEG2 = 50W
HD H.264 = 56W
BluRay   = 55W
S3 Sleep = 2.2W
S4/Off   = 0.4W

I plan on running a new series of checks when I get the new, somewhat better, power supply put in.

What type of psu did it have before it blew up?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

What type of psu did it have before it blew up?

Whatever crap one came in my $40 case. hec Compucase 120W mini-ITX I think. hec doesnt' even make that power supply anymore. The one going in is an Athena Power 220W. I don't really expect much change in the power draw from one PS to the other. At most it's going to be 5-10% difference in most cases, which is pretty inconsequential when dealing with max 50W systems.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by speck55

Especially the system I have running 24x7 with 2xGTX480's in it - I really should buy a tiny server for the stuff this box provides, and power the "monster" machine off except when gaming.

I retired my Windows Home Server in favor of a NAS box and promoted another PC to the role of "24-7 box".

I like the greater reliability of the NAS box in that if a drive dies, the box doesn't have to come down for a day or so while the array is rebuilt.

Also, I was running into applications that would run on a regular Windows XP machine, but would not run under WHS.

But when I crunch the numbers, no purchase on the scale of a NAS box or a new PC makes pure economic sense.

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by speck55

Especially the system I have running 24x7 with 2xGTX480's in it - I really should buy a tiny server for the stuff this box provides, and power the "monster" machine off except when gaming.

I also have a 120 gallon saltwater tank, with almost 600W in T5 flouresent lighting. And of course the pumps, etc.

I did have a scary moment -- I had a fridge that was about to burn down the house. I happen to put my hand on top of the fridge as I was having a conversation with someone and it was hot to the touch. Didn't see anything obstructing the vents at the bottom, and it was an oldie (came with house) so I bought a new LG with the linear compressor "scratch and dent" (not sure because the only scratch or dent it has on it is one I put in it whilst being too cheap to pay for delivery. Anyways, we pulled the old one out, and there was a scorcher running up the wall. Hours later the drywall was too hot to touch still. A bigger fridge, with the temp set very very low for both freezer (-3 f) and fridge (34 f) and that change dropped $100+ off the electric the first full month and it's stayed off.

I switched to a high efficiency pair for washer and drier and WOW what a difference in the time it takes to wash and dry a load (the HE washer spins the stuff pretty much dry!), and the electricity and gas both went down a LOT (lots of laundry b/c of 2 kids, one of which generates at least a set of bed linens and quilt to be washed every morning. ).

Anyways, back on topic... the kill-a-watt -- is it reliable? Ever had any problems with it? They seem pretty inexpensive. I suppose I could rig something and use my digital ammeter, but that has potential for disaster.

My power company said they were fine and accurate. They are easy enough to use.

Make sure to consider the Power Correction Factor - things that are inductive let more electricity "slide" through them vs. a pure resistance item such as a toaster. This makes you use more electricity than you think. It's also why BBU's quote in VA primarily, since a PCF other than 1.0 shortens how long they can supply backup current.

But yeah, the Kill-A-Watt is plenty accurate, easy to use, versatile, and cheap. You program in your electric rate as well. It will give you instant, average over time, etc. power use and cost and many other things. You may want to consider an adult diaper for your first cost readings of the fish tank and your twin GPU system...

Just as an example, I computed out my power costs for running my trading system for 8 hours a day. It adds about $100 to my monthly electric bill. That fits with my neighbors who have a similar size home but don't use the juice I do. I also calculated it added about $50 per month in the summer in A/C costs to get rid of the waste heat. I was very close according to my electric utility. This is one of the primary reasons I am against building a simple, dedicated client system vs. an extender. Only the extenders like Sage and Dune and Popcorn Hour can get down into the tiny electrical consumption range and fast, near-instant boot times.

Unsuspected benefit - you get electric heating in the winter. I have ridiculously low gas bills, believe it or not.