One box Netflix dilemma

[chiledog]

Thanks for the all input. I decided to try the RF remote option. Maybe that will work better. (I ordered it)

A bit of background for those asking. For some reason, my wife has trouble with the remote activities. I think she doesn't always point the remote at the TV/devices until the green light goes off (activity is complete). I think the RF remote would solve this problem.

To make matters a bit more messy, I added a HDMI switch. While my TV has multiple HDMI inputs, it is very, very slow at starting up (about 15 seconds. This is a 2 year old LCD...). If I do not use the switch the whole activity process takes about 20 seconds. Neither my wife or kids could keep the remote pointed for that long (and sometimes not me either). Adding the switch drops the time down to 5 seconds or so. Unfortunately, sometimes the switch has HDCP/syncing problems. (SageTV is a bit wacky with it).
Once again, a RF remote should help here. I will remove the switch and let the TV do the HDMI switching. Even if it takes 20 seconds for the activity to complete, we do not have to keep the remote pointed towards the TV.

Wish me luck.

(and yes, anyone who is married knows who wears the pants. Whoever can complain the loudest/longest. I am no match...)

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by chiledog

Thanks for the all input. I decided to try the RF remote option. Maybe that will work better. (I ordered it)

A bit of background for those asking. For some reason, my wife has trouble with the remote activities. I think she doesn't always point the remote at the TV/devices until the green light goes off (activity is complete). I think the RF remote would solve this problem.

To make matters a bit more messy, I added a HDMI switch. While my TV has multiple HDMI inputs, it is very, very slow at starting up (about 15 seconds. This is a 2 year old LCD...). If I do not use the switch the whole activity process takes about 20 seconds. Neither my wife or kids could keep the remote pointed for that long (and sometimes not me either). Adding the switch drops the time down to 5 seconds or so. Unfortunately, sometimes the switch has HDCP/syncing problems. (SageTV is a bit wacky with it).
Once again, a RF remote should help here. I will remove the switch and let the TV do the HDMI switching. Even if it takes 20 seconds for the activity to complete, we do not have to keep the remote pointed towards the TV.

Wish me luck.

(and yes, anyone who is married knows who wears the pants. Whoever can complain the loudest/longest. I am no match...)

What remote did you get? RF remotes are great as they do away with line of sight (which is causing all of you issues if I'm not mistaken). I can take mine all over the house and it will still control sage. My nephews were watching a movie and the adults were down stairs. Any time we needed to call them to eat or whatever I'd just pause what they were watching and they knew to come down stairs. Awesome.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by cncb

I don't understand. If nothing is blocked and the activities are correct, then why wasn't it working like it's supposed to? I don't think pointing it correctly at the equipment is a "workaround" and paying $300 just so you can point the remote in any direction you want to doesn't seem worth it.

Check out panteragstk and chiledog's responses and maybe it'll make more sense. Many things can cause issues with the IR signal making it. Lots of sunlight on the IR receiver can cause spotty responses. Also, if you have your equipment spread out a little bit (wide, rather than vertically stacked), you may not have the remote pointed exactly right when it sends the signal to certain devices. We also had the issue chiledog had where you might not hold the remote in the proper direction long enough.

Simply put, not everyone has their equipment stacked nicely in a single place. To put this in perspective, I had an old vertical stereo cabinet with an LD player, CD changer, and the receiver. Next to this, I had an entertainment center with a Tivo and two DirecTV boxes, lined up in a row, with the TV on top of the stand on the shelf above the STBs. Devices were placed like this because it was the only way that everything could fit and get proper air circulation. Getting signals to the receiver, TV, and an STB was extremely difficult. If you sat at about 45+ degrees off center and held the remote just below knee level, you could usually point the remote at 0 degrees and hit 2 of the three STBs, the TV and the receiver. (Go ahead and picture that... it's funny as all hell now.)

Now, you try explaining that to your wife!

[Audacity]

If I was the OP, I'd investigate the "single box" solution: use a HTPC.

Hardware wise, consider the Dell Zino HD 410. Small, quiet, cheap.

Using the scaling features in Windows 7/Chrome and a proper input device, I think you can come up with a pretty compelling solution. Especially if you do a lot of streaming video. That is what I'm using and the WAF is very high.

Nothing beats a HTPC when it comes to streaming video for many reasons, one of the key reasons is that streaming video services discriminate against non-PC devices. Either they don't work with non-PC devices at all, or they become pay services (e.g. Hulu) if you're not on a PC, and even then some content is licensed for use on a PC, but is not licensed for distribution on more appliance-like devices. So, if you're browsing the content on a PC you get selections that are hidden if you come back with a non-PC device.

[stanger89]

While you can get everything in "one box" with an HTPC, there's no single HTPC app that can do everything, so you still can't get around the fact that you must switch interfaces, to do everything. And IMO there's no benefit to using a "one box" HTPC with multiple apps vs multiple boxes, and several disadvantages.

For example IMO it's harder to manage multiple apps with good automation than it is multiple boxes, for the simple reason that many PC apps just don't play well with remotes. Plus there are focus issues, etc...

The whole idea that the HTPC is a panacea is a misguided one IMO.

Nothing beats a HTPC when it comes to streaming video for many reasons, one of the key reasons is that streaming video services discriminate against non-PC devices.

They also discriminate against PCs. Netflix is significantly better on STBs, there's no Vudu or Xune 1080p on the PC. That and lots of PC services require using a we browser which I just can't see how that passes WAF.

Neither solution is perfect, both have their issues.

[chiledog]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

What remote did you get? RF remotes are great as they do away with line of sight (which is causing all of you issues if I'm not mistaken).

I ordered a Harmony 890 (an older model) for $130. I couldn't bring myself to spend $300-$400 on a remote. (I know a remote is important, but that is a bit too much for me).

I am hoping it will fix my problems. I will update all of you all on how it goes.

As for a HTPC, it is a bit more than I want to bite off. Ultimately I may have to go that direction... We will see...

Thanks everyone,
Chiledog

[Skirge01]

Something to consider... how much time are you spending troubleshooting, explaining, reconfiguring, etc. Think about what your hourly rate would be at work and do the math. That often helps put the costs in perspective. Oh, and if the wife is complaining about any of the previously mentioned items, rather than putting a price on that, simply DOUBLE the total cost you just came up with. NOW, it's justified.

BTW, I went from the 880 to the 890 and love it. Combining that with EventGhost, I have everything controlled exactly how I want.

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by stanger89

For example IMO it's harder to manage multiple apps with good automation than it is multiple boxes, for the simple reason that many PC apps just don't play well with remotes. Plus there are focus issues, etc...

That is why I linked to "The Loop". I think trying to get all your PC software to work with a remote is a bankrupt strategy, especially when your primary interface (a browser) is designed to be used with a pointer-based interface. It works very well - it's like using a Wii.

Of course, if you think the Wii's control system is awkward, then you probably won't like The Loop. That said, based on the consumer response to the Wii, humans can interface well with a point-and-click interface.

If your requirement is that you must use a traditional remote control then what you say is true. That is why for me, The Loop was key to enabling a high quality browser experience.

Originally Posted by stanger89

The whole idea that the HTPC is a panacea is a misguided one IMO.

I wouldn't use the term panacea, I'd just say it's better than all the alternatives.

Originally Posted by stanger89

They also discriminate against PCs. Netflix is significantly better on STBs, there's no Vudu or Xune 1080p on the PC.

Netflix: I've investigated the Netflix video quality topic, and the bitrate that it provides to PCs is the same bitrate that is available to consoles. Unless you can provide material from Netflix suggesting otherwise, I call bullshit on this point.

Vudu: their marketing on the front page suggests that it supports 1080p on the PC, but then I drilled down further and see that they only support Boxee integration, and only in SD. I'll concede this point, but it is certainly an exception to the rule.

Xune: What is Xune? I haven't heard of it. Google doesn't seem to know what it is either.

Originally Posted by stanger89

That and lots of PC services require using a we browser which I just can't see how that passes WAF.

My wife and my girlfriend () are both pretty capable at using a browser, and those skills transferred just fine when the browser transferred to the TV.

Originally Posted by stanger89

Neither solution is perfect, both have their issues.

The argument that you're attacking "the HTPC is perfect" is a straw man argument. My claim isn't that the HTPC is perfect, my claim is that with the correct input devices, the HTPC is better than the alternatives. A MCE remote control is not a correct input device.

If you go the "network media player" route you need multiple special-purpose boxes, you get less content, and you require a expensive remote.

If you go the HTPC route, buy one of those "The Loop" devices and download Kylo or Google Chrome. In Chrome set the "default zoom level" for web pages to make it comfortable viewing those pages from typical viewing distance from your HDTV. Either get a wireless keyboard, or use a software keyboard and enter text smartphone-style.

Windows does a fine job of allowing you to task switch between applications, and if you drop your key applications in the Windows 7 task bar loading up other apps is effortless. Some people may have trouble with this interface. You can identify those people by seeing if they have trouble using Windows on a laptop/desktop. So, maybe it's not for people who have avoided computers all their life. For everyone else though, it's the best solution that I've seen.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Audacity

Netflix: I've investigated the Netflix video quality topic, and the bitrate that it provides to PCs is the same bitrate that is available to consoles. Unless you can provide material from Netflix suggesting otherwise, I call bullshit on this point.

It is well known that many HD movies streamed to "devices" are only available in SD to PCs (I have confirmed this with my Blu-ray player and my PC).

[GKusnick]

I haven't tried The Loop, but I've tried similar in-air pointing devices in the past and found them wanting. The fundamental problem with all such devices is that they substitute wrist and elbow motion for what should be fine fingertip control. This is an inherently awkward proposition, like trying to play the piano while wearing mittens, or sign your name with a pen duct-taped to the back of your hand.

The success of the Wii, I'd argue, is due to well-designed applications that exploit the controller's strengths, and does not imply that the Wii is an acceptable substitute for a mouse in mouse-based interfaces.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Audacity

That is why I linked to "The Loop". I think trying to get all your PC software to work with a remote is a bankrupt strategy, especially when your primary interface (a browser) is designed to be used with a pointer-based interface. It works very well - it's like using a Wii.

I've got a Gyration, and I agree with Greg, the Wii's success is to do with the software designed to work with the Wiimote's strengths. The Gyration, while acceptable, was far from convenient or intuitive.

I wouldn't use the term panacea, I'd just say it's better than all the alternatives.

That's a valid opinion, but it requires accept all the PC's issues.

Netflix: I've investigated the Netflix video quality topic, and the bitrate that it provides to PCs is the same bitrate that is available to consoles. Unless you can provide material from Netflix suggesting otherwise, I call bullshit on this point.

Have you investigated it by actually comparing the two? Pretty much everyone who has comes to the same conclusion that STBs are superior. One example, the PS3 is the only device that supports 1080p, STBs are the only way to get 5.1 via Netflix. And even if the bitrates are the same, STB players are better than the crappy Silverlight player, just search the web and you'll find tons of comments about quality dropping when Netflix switched to Silverlight.

Vudu: their marketing on the front page suggests that it supports 1080p on the PC, but then I drilled down further and see that they only support Boxee integration, and only in SD. I'll concede this point, but it is certainly an exception to the rule.

Xune: What is Xune? I haven't heard of it. Google doesn't seem to know what it is either.

Sorry I combined XBL Marketplace and Zune, I meant Zune.

The argument that you're attacking "the HTPC is perfect" is a straw man argument. My claim isn't that the HTPC is perfect, my claim is that with the correct input devices, the HTPC is better than the alternatives.

No it's not, your claim is essentially that an HTPC solves all the issues of standalones without acknowleging that it introduces an entirely different set of issues.

A MCE remote control is not a correct input device.

I agree, a URC is a correct input device

If you go the "network media player" route you need multiple special-purpose boxes, you get less content, and you require a expensive remote.

Frankly IMO you just about need the "expensive" remote anyway since you've got a TV, probably SSP, and at least an HTPC.

If you go the HTPC route, buy one of those "The Loop" devices and download Kylo or Google Chrome. In Chrome set the "default zoom level" for web pages to make it comfortable viewing those pages from typical viewing distance from your HDTV. Either get a wireless keyboard, or use a software keyboard and enter text smartphone-style.

Personally the last thing I want when I sit down to watch something is to be "greeted" with a PC-style interface.

Windows does a fine job of allowing you to task switch between applications, and if you drop your key applications in the Windows 7 task bar loading up other apps is effortless.

Windows does do fine with mutliple tasks, but managing input, focus, startup, shutdown of those apps is not nearly as easy as with external devices and input switching.

Especially when you've got a "cheap" remote that doesn't change to let you know what the dynamic buttons are doing.

Some people may have trouble with this interface. You can identify those people by seeing if they have trouble using Windows on a laptop/desktop. So, maybe it's not for people who have avoided computers all their life. For everyone else though, it's the best solution that I've seen.

Ah the typical "If you don't like it you're too dumb" type response. I'll let my history speak for itself. Yet I don't want to have to have a keyboard and mouse or Windows interface on my TV. I was happy with that in college when my PC was my TV, but that's no longer acceptable to me.

[autoboy]

This thing is the most amazing product I have seen in awhile.

http://www.smarthome.com/8045I/IR-to...433-MHz/p.aspx

It will take your IR commands from your remote and transmit them through RF to the basestation which will then blast IR to your devices. You just put in the RF transmitter that fits into a AAA battery socket, and then put the base station somewhere that it will always point at the equipment. You don't need little wires everywhere since you can mount the basestation behind you pointing at your equipment.

The only downside is that it requires a AA or AAA battery in the remote. My Harmony One doesn't have AAA batteries, but the 700 and 650 do.

That will solve your switching problems. If you try for a one box solution, you will introduce more problems than you already have...

[Audacity]

Originally Posted by cncb

It is well known that many HD movies streamed to "devices" are only available in SD to PCs (I have confirmed this with my Blu-ray player and my PC).

Can you cite an example of this? Give me a movie name and I'll look into it. I have a number of Netflix-enabled devices (PC, XBOX 360, iPad, Wii) and I'd like to see where this is done because I haven't noticed it so far.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I've got a Gyration, and I agree with Greg, the Wii's success is to do with the software designed to work with the Wiimote's strengths. The Gyration, while acceptable, was far from convenient or intuitive.

I haven't used the Gyration Air Mouse products. Looking at pictures of the products they just look like standard mice, so I can understand if they are uncomfortable to use if you're not at a desk.

How is the Wii's menu interface all that different from a Windows interface? You have a cursor, and you click on icons/buttons. Its a great substitute for a mouse, much better than keyboard + trackball or a Logitech diNovo mini (two other input devices I own). If you're using a standard MCE remote, I can totally understand that focus issues would frustrate the user, that is because you're using a Windows machine without a mouse (or a device that does a good job of controlling the mouse cursor. If you have a input device that allows you to use the mouse pointer with similar dexterity as a Wii remote, what is the problem? In fact, I'd say it works a little better than a Wii remote, because on the Wii there are a few edge cases where if you hold the Wiimote a certain way the cursor gets "jumpy", and this doesn't happen to me using The Loop.

Switching apps usually isn't an issue either because with the configuration I'm using my primary application is a browser window, maximized. In fact there are really only two applications on my HTPC that get used: Chrome and SageTV. Between the two, Chrome gets used more often because streaming video on the web is so content rich compared to broadcast TV.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Audacity

Can you cite an example of this? Give me a movie name and I'll look into it. I have a number of Netflix-enabled devices (PC, XBOX 360, iPad, Wii) and I'd like to see where this is done because I haven't noticed it so far.

My kids watch the streaming mostly so I know the Scooby-Doo movies aren't available in HD on the PC (Camp Scare and Abracadabra-Doo). I'm not sure about more mainstream titles but as you probably know for a while you couldn't even get HD streaming on the PC. Maybe they have closed the gap quite a bit already.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Audacity

Can you cite an example of this? Give me a movie name and I'll look into it. I have a number of Netflix-enabled devices (PC, XBOX 360, iPad, Wii) and I'd like to see where this is done because I haven't noticed it so far.

If you look at the netflix site, you'll find there's two lists, an "all HD" list that lists the HD available to standalone devices, and an "HD on PC" for the stuff that's available in HD on the PC.

Beyond that, overall quality on the PC via the silverlight player just isn't as good as the embedded netflix player in standalone devices.

I haven't used the Gyration Air Mouse products. Looking at pictures of the products they just look like standard mice, so I can understand if they are uncomfortable to use if you're not at a desk.

It's not that they're uncomfortable, it's that waving your wrist around just doesn't work well. I mean on the one hand it's sort of amazing how well they work, but despite that they're nowhere near as easy as a normal mouse.