v7.22 Crashes.... Sorta.

[isgdre]

In previous version if I pause a show in full screen mode long enough that the computer hibernates (or sleeps or whatever it does) then when I come back SageTV comes back with the show paused in full screen but not longer responds to the keyboard/mouse. Ctrl-Esc works so I can switch to another program and the computer works fine but if I go back to SageTV, Sage will not respond.

V7.22 has made this problem worse as when it comes back the computer screen is entirely blank. Yet Ctrl-Esc still works. Any ideas what I can do about this?

Yes, I know I can put in an official bug report but that's always turned out to be 100% useless so I'm hoping someone here can help.

[Spectrum]

If the behavior changed between 7.21 and 7.22 BUG IT. That's what the bug tracking system is for. As a work around, you could stop the video rather than pausing it for an extended period of time, Sage will remember where you were and give you the option to resume. I realize this is non-optimal and there are times when "I'll only be gone a minute" turns into hours, but it's all I got

Sounds like something the devs will have to address to change, but I've been wrong before!

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by isgdre

Yes, I know I can put in an official bug report but that's always turned out to be 100% useless so I'm hoping someone here can help.

You really seem to be misunderstand the purpose of the bug reporting system, and beta software in general. The bug reports are not there for support requests (that's a completely different item) - they are there so you, as a 'TESTER' can provide your testing results to the developer so they know what needs fixing/improving.

[isgdre]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

You really seem to be misunderstand the purpose of the bug reporting system.

Oh I don't know about that. My idea is that if I report a bug that someone will look into it and you know... maybe even fix it for the next versions (or two).

But when I reported two very obvious and very annoying problems (like can't re-size window on Base Win 7, full screen not being in the foreground ) All I got for a response to them was "We can't reproduce the problem" and it didn't get fixed. I mean.... sheeshhhh.... try grabbing the corner with the mouse and moving it before responding to the bug.

Reading other posts here it seems it had something to do with Areo and/or DirectX. Heck the bug-guys didn't even ask for a config file to see if I had it configured differently. But I guess enough people complained about it that they did actually fix it. it's better in v7.22

So I feel if individual reports are just being dismissed until they get enough complaints then I'm just going to bow out of the bug-report system. I don't mind helping.... but ignored.... that's a different story.

[Fuzzy]

So your saying that they focus their limited development staff to fixing the problems that affect the greatest number of people - using the numbers of bug reports as a guide - and that it is pointless to submit it because you are ignored - and your example is a time when you, as well as others, DID submit a report - and it was fixed? Yeah, that makes sense.

[isgdre]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

If the behavior changed between 7.21 and 7.22 BUG IT.

I'm afraid my inbox set aside for dismissive emails is full right now so I'll not bother with the bug.

However. the STOP thing is an interesting idea. I'll try that. I'll stop the recording but leave SageTV in full screen mode (in the menu). Do you think there is one spot better to try then others? i.e. the recorded list, the main menu, the scheduled menu. I'm thinking all the menus/lists are likely going to respond the same to the sleep/hibernate whatever that response is. But having suggested a good idea to try maybe you have a bit more insite.

[isgdre]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

So your saying that they focus their limited development staff to fixing the problems that affect the greatest number of people - using the numbers of bug reports as a guide - and that it is pointless to submit it because you are ignored - and your example is a time when you, as well as others, DID submit a report - and it was fixed? Yeah, that makes sense.

Yes, my development philosophy is different. I get my team to fix problems for the FIRST person to report it so I don't get hundreds of reports on the same thing. That way I'm not annoying the hundreds that report it and the thousands that have the same problem but don't report it.

But no worries. I get it. They are fixing them based on number of complaints. So I'll bow out and go with the thousands that don't complain and wait for them to fix it based on the hundreds that do.

still boards like this draw a mixture of the people that put in bugs and those that don't. And when your waiting it's good to draw on other peoples ideas on how to put up with the little issues that come along.

[GKusnick]

In my experience they are responsive to single, well-documented bug reports. By far the most common outcome of this, for me, has been "Thanks for the report; this will be fixed in the next build."

I've never been told, "We're not going to fix that because you're the only one complaining."

I have sometimes been told, "We can't reproduce that," in which case I work with them to either nail down a case they can reproduce, or figure out why the problem is due to my error and not theirs.

I have once or twice been told, "That's a difficult thing to fix, and not a showstopper, so we're putting a low priority on it for now," which I accept as reasonable given limited development resources.

However none of that, in my opinion, justifies the claim that the bug-reporting system is "100% useless" or that "individual reports are just being dismissed". If you don't want to participate, fine. But by opting out, you forfeit the right to complain if your unreported bug doesn't get fixed.

[isgdre]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I've never been told, "We're not going to fix that because you're the only one complaining."

Wow, I've never been told that either. Of course if they did tell people that they likely wouldn't have many users.

It's the "We can't reproduce that." that I feel is useless. At the best of times I don't put bugs in unless I have the time to work with them on the problem. I've been the senior system developer for over 10 years. For companies with over 300 stores and now own my own software design and consulting business. Just because I'm not all upset over all this and flaming profanities doesn't mean I don't know how to fill out a simple bug report. Life's too short to get worked up about all this stuff.

I'm glad you had a better experience. By the sounds of it lots do. Maybe SageTVaholic status helps. Maybe I just caught a bad day.

I also did not claim that the bug-reporting system is "100% useless" just that's how it's turn out to be for me. I in fact am relying on it as per "and wait for them to fix it based on the hundreds that do." (referring to reporting bugs)

If you read the original post you'll see that the only reason I brought up the bug system at all was I felt that after reading the post people would just say to put a bug in and maybe even leave me the link to do that. I wanted to save them some time and effort.

Still seems this post has pushed SageTV problems and into talking about the bug-tracking system. So... Sure I'm curious if I've hit a sore spot but I'm still more interested in the original problem.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by isgdre

It's the "We can't reproduce that." that I feel is useless. At the best of times I don't put bugs in unless I have the time to work with them on the problem. I've been the senior system developer for over 10 years. For companies with over 300 stores and now own my own software design and consulting business. Just because I'm not all upset over all this and flaming profanities doesn't mean I don't know how to fill out a simple bug report. Life's too short to get worked up about all this stuff.

But this is no different than when you are having problems with your car. "It keeps making this funny noise every time I start it and put it into drive." And when you get there you can't make it make that funny noise. You don't expect them to pull apart your entire car and I don't think you expect them to fix that funny noise it longer makes. If they can't reproduce the issue I'm not sure what you would expect them to do. This has happened to me and this makes me pick up my diagnostic tools and troubleshoot for something on my end. Even if I have to do a clean install on another machine and see if I can reproduce the issue.

I just worked with support on an issue I reported as a bug. Supplied logs. It turns out it wasn't an issue with Sage. It was the DHCP server on the router trying to renew a MAC-reserved IP address that it really shouldn't try to do. When this occurred there was a momentary closing of the connection which caused extenders to freeze and turn off. After resetting the NIC as a static IP the issue hasn't occurred.

Whether you get on the forum or not to talk about issues affecting you. The expectation while testing the beta is to file a bug report on issues that affect you. If they say they can't reproduce and no one is stating they have the same issue then the troubleshooting begins on your end.

Gerry

[Narflex]

The OP is not being fair at all here. I took a look through the bug reports and found the two from him.

The first one was a straightforward interaction where we didn't understand the initial report, because it was a one sentence description that didn't describe the problem very well at all, but then after a few back and forths, we figured out what he meant and fixed the problem. We even told him it was fixed for the next build, which was over a month ago and that build has been released already. (this was regarding resizing the window in obscure ways)

His second report was an issue w/ the windows taskbar staying on top of SageTV in full screen mode. This was one of those cases, where we don't see the problem, and no others report the problem, so we're not sure what was different on his system. We did ask him to try upgrading Java, since that could possibly relate to it; but then he never responded again from there. Usually that means the user figured out the problem...but if he would have replied back to us again, we sure would have continued to work with him on it.

So there's the facts, and claiming our bug reporting process is 100% useless is just utterly false.

[panteragstk]

Being in a tech support field I understand the OP's problem. But look at it from the person attempting to fix your issue point of view. If there isn't adequate information being given to help come to a resolution then there won't be a resolution. I've submitted bugs many times and have ALWAYS gotten a response. If you want I'll go through the beta and rc builds and point out the specific things sage has fixed for JUST ME. I will NEVER use another media center software because there isn't a software company out there that puts as much effort into their customers as sagetv. Posts like this never help so why don't you submit a bug with too much information and see what happens...

EDIT: I just thought I'd throw this in. My issues are 100% not sagetv's fault. Bare bones sagetv works flawlessly. For some reason adding very specific plugins cause some of my issues (which sage has narrowed down to almost none) so in all fairness you need to be using bare stock sagetv to even begin to blame them for things that go wrong. Have you done that?

[isgdre]

Hi Narflex.

OP Here.

Wow, CTO & Founder. Ok, Well, Like I said I'm not all upset about this so if you want to talk about I'm still game.

First off. I did not say

Originally Posted by Narflex

claiming our bug reporting process is 100% useless

Just that it's “turned out to be” referring to ME putting them in. I even say that I'll relay on others.

But lets look at the bugs from my point of view (since that's what I was using to start this topic).

First bug, the resizing of the windows I reported on version 7.15. You did say you Found the problem Though you'll have to point out to me where you said you would fix for the next version. But I assume that anyway. Yet. 7.16,7.17, and in 7.18 I tested it and YUP! Much more responsive. The slow reation to the wield motion was truly gone. Trouble was the wacky aspect ration problem that I was complaining about was still there. In fact SageTV moved itself right off the right end of my screen during testing and I couldn't get it back I had to restart the computer.

So, One Report Zero fixes. Yet, I did say in this topic that I did retest in 7.22 and it's now fixed. I'm assuming it wasn't from my report back in 7.15 based on your implying that it was not a big problem.

Second bug, The non-full-screen on V7.16. In this one the person that answered the email was nice enough to say “this is not something we can reproduce“..... I'll not repeat it all here but in the end he did suggest I update the java but since my java was already updated I got nothing from this email. There wasn't even a question in there that I could answer for you. I even retested it in 7.18 (I believe that was the version) and sure enough same thing.

So, Two reports, Zero Fixes.

Ok, So maybe I shouldn't have said it turned out to be 100% useless. Maybe 0% useful would have been better. )

You know, It's not like I have some wacky weird system. It's my TV in my living room. I installed Win 7-64bit, Installed the tv card, Installed SageTV. Took the defaults for almost everything and poof. Ok, I've installed Firefox and OpenOffice since then, mostly for this forum as my English is not the greatest.

As for the project management of the open bugs... Well, it's not like I'm getting payed to help you guys so I'll leave the project management to your people. At first I figured since I didn't get a “closed” report that you guys where still working on it but yes, by now my feelings have already changed. Now I think they have just been dropped. Likely another thing that left me to feel it wasn't very useful. I mean even Microsoft officially tells you when they are dropping support calls and I don't think anyone would say they have a good support system. Hummmm... What am I thinking. I bet most people off the street don't even know they have one.


So, Mr. Narflex. There have been a few clams/implications of things in this topic that I didn't say but as for the ones I did they are NOT

Originally Posted by Narflex

utterly false

. I'm sorry if relaying here what actually happened offends you in anyway. I'm willing to change the language on it. How about “just didn't pan out”. What I'm not willing to do is say that it was helpful when it was not.

I only hope you spend as much time looking into the reason for this topic as we have on the bug-tracking system.

[isgdre]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

so in all fairness you need to be using bare stock sagetv to even begin to blame them for things that go wrong. Have you done that?

Hey man.

Good point..... Sorta. I have installed "Favorite Excluder" and the "Canadian Channel Logo Pack" But when I look at the plugins there a bunch of others there (7 in all). So, I assume either SageTV came with them or they are sub-componets of the ones I did install. Any way to tell where they came from?

I can uninstall the two I put in for a bit but I don't want to take things out I shouldn't.

[bastafidli]

FYI, just a suggestion. Since not having publicly viewable bug database makes working with defects little difficult, I usually open topic for a specific defect in forum and then sent Sage a link. This way other users can report their observations, I can keep track of them and in case something is fixed I can also record it there.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by isgdre

Hey man.

Good point..... Sorta. I have installed "Favorite Excluder" and the "Canadian Channel Logo Pack" But when I look at the plugins there a bunch of others there (7 in all). So, I assume either SageTV came with them or they are sub-componets of the ones I did install. Any way to tell where they came from?

I can uninstall the two I put in for a bit but I don't want to take things out I shouldn't.

Favorites excluder will install some extras. I'm not sure why, but some plugins can cause problems. It won't be the same on all systems. So to see if it is a sage problem you need to do what I did. Fresh sage install (and windows if possible, drive imaging software is your friend) and if everything is perfect (like with my setup) and nothing fails playback wise, you will need to see which plugin is causing you issues. I've been through it so I know exactly which ones are to blame. When they don't exist in my system the problems aren't there. I still filed a bug report just because it might have been something sage could fix, and if not I am going to let the plugin dev know what is going on. Just letting you know that even though sage support may not respond as fast as you would like, they will respond and if you do what they ask they will resolve the issue for you (within reason).

[PLUCKYHD]

Originally Posted by Narflex

The first one was a straightforward interaction where we didn't understand the initial report, because it was a one sentence description that didn't describe the problem very well at all

That says allot to me right there. As a "project manager for open bugs" as you say you think you would know how to send a valid detailed bug report and not a one liner.

I have had much much respect for sagetv and their bug report handling and feature request handling. Hell they handle feature request better than most companies handle bug reports. I have found being thorough and detailed with any bug repot with any company has always netted the best results.

Try filing a bug report with the big MS and see it get validated and having to wait until a service pack release for the fix. Thank heavens sage doesn't take that approach.

[isgdre]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

That says allot to me right there. As a "project manager for open bugs" as you say you think you would know how to send a valid detailed bug report and not a one liner.

Ok, this is getting a bit odd. Is this yet another thing I didn't say “a project manager for open bugs”? Or were you not referring to me? My first though was you were referring to Narflex then the “send a valid detailed bug” didn't fit.

And No, I did NOT put in a one liner as Narflex said. It was a whopping two lines. :P ) (ok maybe close enough)

Unfortunately the problem was not complicated in any way. I mean it seemed demeaning to included any more. Having to explain how the mouse works or how to drag a corner of a window would have been insulting. So Here (cut and pasted) is what I did write.

if you resize SageTV using the bottom right corner it acts as expected.

If you use any other corner you get exciting (if not understood) results.


Now, true it's now more understood what it was doing now. At the time there was no really logic of what it was doing that I could add. But since it could do it every time and it didn't need any setup what more could I say? Well other then not being in full screen mode but since we are talking about window resizing that seemed insulting to add too.

This truly was not complicated. I'm mean really.... Try it..... Put in 7.15 and drag a corner other then the bottom left or top right. What you'll see is wacky results. Slow? Delayed? Moving to where the mouse was? An aspect ration problem? I don't know (or didn't then).

I guess if I was an expert (i.e. a pollution) I could have added pages and pages of non-related and useless information Or on the other hand.

“Try resizing the window from the bottom left”

Would have been good enough too and at least that would actually been a one linger.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by isgdre

Or on the other hand.

“Try resizing the window from the bottom left”

Would have been good enough too and at least that would actually been a one linger.

And if they couldn't replicate the problem? Then your two liner or this tells them absolutely nothing about the symptoms of the problem. This problem didn't occur for everyone. (I never saw it.)

What you'll see is wacky results. Slow? Delayed? Moving to where the mouse was? An aspect ration problem? I don't know (or didn't then).

Including something like this at least gives them an understanding of what is occurring for you.

Gerry

[GKusnick]

A useful bug report includes the following information:

* Step-by-step repro instructions.
* A description of the expected result.
* A detailed and accurate description of the observed result.
* System configuration information that might be relevant to the observed behavior.

Including this information is not an insult to the support technicians. Failure to include it does disrespect them by wasting their time with incomplete or unreproducible reports. When in doubt, too much information is better than too little. Any experienced software tester should know this.