Thinking about making the switch or rather adding SageTV

[J.K.B.]

Hello all, this is my first post after much trolling and what I would like to do is replace 3 Comcast HD DVR cable boxes and 1 SD DVR. I'll probably get a new 1080p tv for our bedroom where the standard box is, so lets just say 4 HD locations for now.

Here is a list of my requirements:
-Record at least 2 HD cable shows at once and watch another at the same time
-Get all my digital preferred cable channels and sports channels
-Be able to watch the HD recorded or live TV from any of those 4 locations

Here's what I think I'll need based on reading quite a few posts as well as the looking through the sage website:

Computer with:
-SageTV Media Center
-Hauppauge HVR-2250 ($200 combo with media center)
-1 HD DVR cable box ($16/mo)
-Hauppauge HD-PVR for cable box - $225
-4 - HD300 for the tv locations (house is hardwired) - $600

So what else does it look like I will need? I'm not positive from what I read on the other posts I searched, but I cannot use a cablecard or m-card with this to get my digital cable channels and do away with the last HD DVR box correct? Only Microsoft or a secure system can use that?

I almost made the switch to Tivo just to get larger boxes when I stumbled onto Sage. If I can get this to work the way I'm hoping, it will cost less ($1,025 vs $1,600) for just 2 premier HD tivo boxes with lifetime service.

Does the quality (audio or picture) get degraded at all compared to a comcast HD DVR box?

Anything else I should be considering?

Let me know if it looks like I'm on the right track and thanks for the replies in advance.

JB

[lobosrul]

You can save yourself a few bucks a month by renting an HD (non-DVR) box from your cable co. The HD in the SageTV server is doing the recording, not the cable box.

You can try recording HD via firewire from the cable box to your SageTV PC. Chances are you won't be able to record anything buy your locals, but its worth a shot, especially if computer has a firewire port.

If you go the HD-PVR route you will be losing a bit of quality, its re-encoding the analog output from component, so it is lossy. I have heard that with a proper setup its a very minimal loss. However, if you manage to record from firewire, or clear QAM, or over the air HD, then the quality is exactly the same.

[J.K.B.]

Thanks for the quick reply. I'll likely just build a new desktop or take the one I built for my office about 1.5yrs ago home and do a new one there depending on what would run the home media better.

What would you consider the "optimal setup" for the HD PVR route for minimal loss in quality?

If I understood correctly, the PVR would tune the comcast box so that the recordings happen automatically correct? Would the recordings have to be done manually if I did the firewire route? (by that I mean, tune to the correct channel and wait for the computer to start recording?)

And was I correct about there still not being a way to use a cablecard with sage?

I think I'm understanding the big picture, but still caught up on a lot of the details.

Thanks

[Oats]

The Hauppauge 2250 willl most likely only get your local channels in Hi-Def. Which leaves you with only 1 tuner, the HD-PVR, to record any cable channels. If you watch a lot of cable shows you might need to go with two HD-PVRs.

[J.K.B.]

So i can use 2 hd-pvr's with 1 cable box? I wish they had a more detailed "complete" setup on their main website so someone could get a better idea of how everything worked together in greater detail.

Is there a link that has a detailed setup? I've seen a lot of threads on what people are using, but don't really know the limitations or if it is applicable to what I am wanting it to do.

[darcilicious]

No, each cable box is a single tuner so every channel you want to record / watch simultaneously, will need its own tuner (cable box) and hd-pvr.

[Spectrum]

Yep you need 1 cablebox + 1 HDPVR for each simultaneous cable recording. The nice thing is cable has soooo many repeats that as long as you don't mind not watching something live (ewwww a week with sage will make you hate live tv) and possibly waiting for a 2nd or 3rd airing you may be able to get away with only 1 or 2 HDPVRs/Cable boxes.

Some cable companies provide locals in QAM in HD and some only in SD. They are (currently) required by law to provide them, but there is no stipulation on quality. Also some cable companies also move the channels around on occasion. When I made the jump to HD I could get my locals in HD via QAM without making any changes to my subscription and the channel numbers have never changed for me. Of course YMMV

Sage does not currently support CableCard and there has been no indication that they intend to add it. That doesn't mean they won't, they are good at keeping things under wraps until the last minute

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by J.K.B.

What would you consider the "optimal setup" for the HD PVR route for minimal loss in quality?

It allows you to vary the bitrate of the recording. The higher the bitrate, the better quality.

[Fuzzy]

I'd recommend going to an antenna for your locals if you've got the reception (check tvfool.com to check signal strengths at your house). You can then go with either the aforementioned HVR-2250 to grab two local broadcasts at a time, or a SiliconDust HDHomeRun to do the same (HDHomeRun is ethernet, so you can locate it closer to the antenna). Both work excellent, and have great tuner sensitivity.

As mentioned, you can probably start with just a single HD SetTopBox, and a single Hauppauge HD-PVR to get your cable channels. Most cable broadcasting has so many repeats, that it's no problem. If you find too many conflicts, you can add boxes/hd-pvr's to your hearts content later. The only other issue to contend with is setting up sage to control the SetTopBox. It has to have a way of changing channels. Currently, for cable, there's two options:

1. IR Blaster - The HD-PVR includes a single IR blaster, but driver limitations prevent using more than one Hauppauge blaster on a single system. An alternative would be a USB-UIRT, which can control up to 3 zones.
2. Firewire - If your box supports it, and you aren't running a 64-bit version of windows, you can use a firewire connection to change channels on your STB.

[J.K.B.]

Ok, starting to get a better sense of it.

I like the idea of starting with 1 cable box and 1 pvr and seeing how that works.

If doing a PVR of the highest bit rate, how much space does it take up for say a 1 hr show? The only place I would care greatly about picture is in our theater room where we have a 131" screen and is crystal clear with blu ray and anything much less starts to show some of the distortion. That happens to be where I watch all my sports games and my wife and I watch several of our shows per week. The rest of my recordings could be of lesser quality b/c none of the other TVs are bigger than 55". Just trying to gage HD space requirements.

Also, if I try to record more than 1 show with sage from the cable box at 1 time, does it recognize if there is another showing later and automatically record it, or do you have to manually go in a check/alter every occurance? I know it will happen a lot during basketball season where a game will overlap a show, but the show comes on several days later again.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by J.K.B.

If doing a PVR of the highest bit rate, how much space does it take up for say a 1 hr show? The only place I would care greatly about picture is in our theater room where we have a 131" screen and is crystal clear with blu ray and anything much less starts to show some of the distortion. That happens to be where I watch all my sports games and my wife and I watch several of our shows per week. The rest of my recordings could be of lesser quality b/c none of the other TVs are bigger than 55". Just trying to gage HD space requirements.

The HD-PVR tops out at about 13Mbps I think. That's a little over 5GB/Hour. If there are shows you don't really care about quality with, you can set the recording quality on a per-favorite basis. Either way, you'll never seen anything near blu-ray (or even near-broadcast) quality from your cable box. not because of going through the HD-PVR, but because of the high compression cable co's use to fit as many channels in their stream as they can.

Originally Posted by J.K.B.

Also, if I try to record more than 1 show with sage from the cable box at 1 time, does it recognize if there is another showing later and automatically record it, or do you have to manually go in a check/alter every occurance? I know it will happen a lot during basketball season where a game will overlap a show, but the show comes on several days later again.

Yeah, you tell sage what you want to watch by setting up the favorites, and it pretty much handles the details. Part of it's conflict resolution algorithm is to look ahead for future airings of the same show. It will actually delay recording a higher priority favorite if it would prevent the system from ever being able to record the lower priority one. If there is a conflict it can't resolve on it's own, it will offer you the chance to choose what to record.

[J.K.B.]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

The HD-PVR tops out at about 13Mbps I think. That's a little over 5GB/Hour. If there are shows you don't really care about quality with, you can set the recording quality on a per-favorite basis. Either way, you'll never seen anything near blu-ray (or even near-broadcast) quality from your cable box. not because of going through the HD-PVR, but because of the high compression cable co's use to fit as many channels in their stream as they can.

Thanks for the info. Looks like a 1T HD would allow for 200hrs of max resolution shows. That sounds pretty good to me!

I'm a little confused by the quality statement though (guess it could be interpreted 2 ways). I know the cable box doesn't produce anywhere near blu ray quality picture, but are you saying that with the PVR set at the highest resolution that it will keep the same resolution as what I get out of the cable box with an HDMI cable?

[J.K.B.]

Here are my broadcast signal strengths. Not sure how good or what all that means.

[J.K.B.]

Ok, here are some new questions I have thought of as well:

How does sage manage all the different inputs? Say if I just wanted to search through the tv guide and watch some live tv? Is it similar to a cable box where you find what you want to watch and click on it using the HD300? Does it pop up a tv guide from all the different inputs (cable box, broadcast, etc) together? From what I've learned so far, you could only watch 1 show live from the cable box and that's IF it wasn't already recording something.

From what I've seen so far, it sounds great for managing and watching recordings, I was just wondering how it handled distributing live tv?

[Spectrum]

If you are getting your local channels from cable (QAM) the signal quality from broadcast won't matter. The cable companies are taking the broadcast signal and compressing it to save bandwidth on their lines. If you are receiving your locals via an antenna (ATSC) you won't have the cable company "interfering" and compressing the signal. Distance/signal strength won't change the amount of information in the signal, just whether you can receive it clearly or not.

[J.K.B.]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

If you are getting your local channels from cable (QAM) the signal quality from broadcast won't matter. The cable companies are taking the broadcast signal and compressing it to save bandwidth on their lines. If you are receiving your locals via an antenna (ATSC) you won't have the cable company "interfering" and compressing the signal. Distance/signal strength won't change the amount of information in the signal, just whether you can receive it clearly or not.

Yeah, I was considering getting an antenna if the quality really would be that much better. I understand that the HD-PVR maxes out at 13gb/s or roughly 5GB/hr, but when not running things through the PVR, how large does a 1hr show get from an antenna?

[Spectrum]

I don't have an antenna set up but I don't think my locals are very compressed via QAM. I have a 1080i recording that Media Info reports has a nominal bitrate of 20Mbps and it is 5.8GB. My 1hr HDPVR recordings(13.5Mbps) are around 5.9GB.

[Fuzzy]

ATSC broadcasts top out at 19.5Mbps. That's about 8.5GB/hour. I would still recommend going with an antenna. It is, believe it or not, far less troublesome than QAM. A medium or large directional VHF/UHF antenna pointing near due south should have no problem picking up those all your major channels.

[J.K.B.]

It seems like the more I learn the more questions I have and the more impressed I keep getting from the system as a whole.

Here is a list of the questions I have as of now:

How does sage manage all the different inputs?
Say if I just wanted to search through the tv guide and watch some live tv?

Is it similar to a cable box where you find what you want to watch and click on it using the HD300? Does it populate all the different inputs (cable box, broadcast, etc) together and give you a tv guide for everything? Does it repeat the channels that are both on the cable box and over the air if using both cable and antenna?

Would I need 1 antenna or cable input into the computer per TV that I wanted to watch simultaneous live TV on? From what I've learned so far, it seems like you could only watch 1 show live from the cable box and that's IF it wasn't already recording something. Is the same true for the antenna?

Also, my cable boxes have a 1394 firewire port. Does anyone know if these are usable from comcast? I know they disable the standard usb port so that you can't add additional HD space. If it doesn't work, from your experience, is the cisco or scientific Atlantic a better box to keep - I currently have both... would getting a Tivo to use for the cable box be any better?

Thanks!

[tchapin]

Originally Posted by J.K.B.

How does sage manage all the different inputs?
Say if I just wanted to search through the tv guide and watch some live tv?

Is it similar to a cable box where you find what you want to watch and click on it using the HD300? Does it populate all the different inputs (cable box, broadcast, etc) together and give you a tv guide for everything? Does it repeat the channels that are both on the cable box and over the air if using both cable and antenna?

I only have one source, so I can't comment.

Would I need 1 antenna or cable input into the computer per TV that I wanted to watch simultaneous live TV on? From what I've learned so far, it seems like you could only watch 1 show live from the cable box and that's IF it wasn't already recording something. Is the same true for the antenna?

Yes, you need one source per live TV watching / recording that you want to go on simultaneously. That's also true for the antenna, but you wouldn't need multiple antennas. You would need multiple tuners connected to your antenna.

Also, my cable boxes have a 1394 firewire port. Does anyone know if these are usable from comcast? I know they disable the standard usb port so that you can't add additional HD space. If it doesn't work, from your experience, is the cisco or scientific Atlantic a better box to keep - I currently have both... would getting a Tivo to use for the cable box be any better?

What do you mean by "getting a TiVo to use for the cable box"? Your best experience will be to convert everything over to Sage. That way you don't have to remember what you have recording on which system. Plus TiVo's multi-room capability requires having multiple TiVos with subscriptions in each room that you want to watch the programs. Also, as far as I know, they don't have cooperative scheduling and recording, which means that each TiVo manage's it's season passes and recordings separately.

You can control an external cable box easily via IR. I (and many other people) use the USB-UIRT.

Todd