Opportunity for Frey Technologies?

[Diego Garcia]

I am one of the many unhappy HDPVR users who struggle to get it to work reliably with Sage. That stupid piece of hardware is the source of more frustration per pound than any other piece of hardware I've owned in at least ten years! Unfortunately, thanks to my wonderful cable TV distributor (Comcast), I can either use their laughably-limited DVR, pay a fortune for Tivo, go without all the benefits of a DVR or wrestle with the HDPVR. To paraphrase the old saying, the HDPVR may border on being a piece of junk, but it's not bad when you consider the alternative .

But I have an idea for how to fix this. It seems to me the problems are due to the lack of integration between Sage and the HDPVR. Why couldn't Frey contract with Hauppauge to sell a specially-branded version of the HDPVR under the Sage label, and allow Frey enough access to the guts of the HDPVR to "tune" it to work with the Sage software?

I paid a little under $200 for my HDPVR. I'd pay a premium on top of that if it was "guaranteed" to work with Sage. If enough people felt the same, that premium could yield a nice profit for Frey.

[gplasky]

You realize the problems with the HD-PVR have also been seen running other types of media center software other than Sage. There are actual issues with the device and not the software that is trying to use it. And to be honest, if it was in the hands of Frey Technologies to fix the issues with the HD-PVR don't you think they already would have done that? If you don't believe that use your HD-PVR with Windows Media Center or another software that supports the HD-PVR and see if the issues go away.

Gerry

[Lucas]

I would also add that SageTV have incorporated some workarounds in V7 to address some of the issues...

From what I read in the forums some people don't have issues and some do.

Glad I don't have to rely on the HDPVR though.

[Brent]

I don't want to flame your unhappiness with the HD-PVR, but I have to say this: "my HD-PVR with SageTV works great." I haven't had a lockup since SageTV tweaked the way their software handles the HD-PVR which is quite a long time. I do know I've had better luck with the HD-PVR using SageTV over BeyondTV, MediaPortal and Microsoft MediaCenter. So I think they've done what they can. I do know others have issues with their HD-PVR though. The hardware seems to be different in some way from one batch to another.

I agree though that a solution to access Cable and Satellite systems is important to the future of HTPCs as they continue to lock down the content with encrypted QAM and the like. I'm still hoping there will be a change to the current CableCard fiasco or possibly SageTV will cave in and work to make their software CableCard able. In the meantime my HD-PVR does a pretty good job along with my HDHRs.

[SHS]

The most common problem with Hauppauge HD PVR is not the 3rdparty software or OS it has more to do with HD-PVR hardware then any thing else.
1: Over heating
2: USB2 incompatible
3: Source input, in some case it usely high number video error on output that you don't see becuases error correction but more likey it the Audio side namely Optical audio Input try your analog side with out the Optical cable hook up make sure you power off the HD-PVR frist and re-set your audio setting, All so try lowering your output resolution on the set-top box.
Most owner that get HD-PVR never do full hardcore rec test before using SageTV you should pre-run the Arcsoft TME software frist for at least a 4/6 hour rec.

I hate USB capture device they seem to alway have problem.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

But I have an idea for how to fix this. It seems to me the problems are due to the lack of integration between Sage and the HDPVR. Why couldn't Frey contract with Hauppauge to sell a specially-branded version of the HDPVR under the Sage label, and allow Frey enough access to the guts of the HDPVR to "tune" it to work with the Sage software?

The problem isn't Sage it's the HD PVR. I'm pretty sure Sage has very close access to the HD PVR's guts (I'm almost positive they know more about the issues than they're allowed to say given some of their comments over the past).

The fact is, the problems aren't unique to Sage, and in fact, I think Sage is actually less-prone to issues than other softwares.

I paid a little under $200 for my HDPVR. I'd pay a premium on top of that if it was "guaranteed" to work with Sage. If enough people felt the same, that premium could yield a nice profit for Frey.

I think Sage has done everything they can to improve the HD PVRs reliability, and each time they find something new, they put it in. It's in the release notes for V7, there are changes in V7 to address the HD PVR's issues. But the fact remains, the problems are the HD PVR.

For example I saw somewhere that a support email from Hauppauge indicated they were looking into ways to fix the IR receiver issues that cause the box to lock up, but it sounded like it was in the hands of the IR receiver chipset manufacturer.

If you're willing to spend more to make it work, I suggest you contact Hauppauge and tell them you'd be willing to pay for an "upgrade" that worked solidly.

[Diego Garcia]

Sigh. Virtually every one of the responders has completely missed my point. Let me try again.

I'm not complaining about Sage. There are aspects of it which I don't care for, and there are certainly some problems with the Sage software, but for the price of the software, it's a great bargain. I have no problem recommending it to people who want to roll their own DVR, and I'm glad I used it to build my DVR.

My point was based on the old precept that every problem is an opportunity in disguise.

Consider the quality of the experience with Frey's HD200 (I never owned an HD100, but I bet the story was similar). It's a great little box. And it works very well with Sage software, because Frey controls both the hardware and software sides of the experience.

Based on that, I believe Frey would sell a better HDPVR-type product than Hauppauge, better defined to be "works well with Sage".

My suggestion about Frey contracting with Hauppauge is based on the presumption that the hardware expertise to build an HDPVR-like device is substantially different from that needed to build an HD200-like device. So rather than re-invent the wheel, why not work with someone who almost has a good product, and develop a great one?

Far from being a complaint about Sage, or Frey, this is a potential opportunity for Frey to meet an unmet or poorly-met need, expand market share, extend their brand and make more money.

Now, whether it's feasible or not is a different story. It might be too expensive an opportunity to pursue. It might require a price point, due to anticipated sales volumes, too high to be an attractive product (e.g., I'd pay, oh, a $100 premium for a "good" HDPVR, but not a $500 premium). That's for Frey to evaluate.

I just hope they consider it, if they haven't already done so.

[GKusnick]

Your assumption seems to be either that the folks at Sage know how to fix the HD-PVR hardware, but aren't sharing that knowledge with Hauppauge, or that Hauppauge knows how to fix it in a way that would benefit Sage users, but for some reason they're not implementing that fix until Sage signs a joint marketing agreement with them. Or maybe neither of them knows how to fix it yet, but if they just put their heads together, the fix will become obvious.

I don't find any of those assumptions very plausible. My impression is that Sage and Hauppauge have been in fairly close communication about the HD-PVR since well before its product launch. Why wouldn't they be, given that Sage users are a primary market for the HD-PVR? I don't see how putting a Sage logo on the box will suddenly make that communication more productive.

(And by the way, there is no "Frey Technologies" anymore. They changed their name several years ago to SageTV LLC.)

[Diego Garcia]

Not at all. Nowhere did I suggest that Frey/Sage/whoever is withholding information or a solution. In fact, it's such a silly idea that it never even occurred to me.

I'd be interested in hearing from someone at Sage LLC about this. Anyone listening?

[Fuzzy]

I think it basically comes down to business. The Hauppauge HD-PVR sells plenty of units. The hardware has it's faults, but it still sells plenty of units. It has no real world competition, so it will, even with problems, continue to sell plenty of units. It has a hardware problem (at least one, with the IR receiver, probably more, like the overheating issue) that would cost R&D and retooling to fix, which would NOT make it sell any more units. I don't know anyone who was deterred from buying the HD-PVR due to these problems, because there is no other alternative, so fixing them will cost money, and not increase revenue. If there was any realistic competition to the HD-PVR, and it DIDN'T have these issues, then there might be a reason for hauppauge to fix it. Until then, though, I don't see it happening.

In any case, it's a hauppauge problem, with hauppauge hardware, and is in no way sage's issue (in fact, they have implemented PLENTY of workarounds, more than any other company, to avoid these issues). I fail to see how Sage could do any more, it hauppauge isn't willing to fix the issues they already know about.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

Nowhere did I suggest that Frey/Sage/whoever is withholding information or a solution.

Sure you did. You said that Hauppauge should give Sage "access to the guts of the HDPVR", which implies that they're obstructing a solution by withholding such access now.

[sleonard]

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

...

Consider the quality of the experience with Frey's HD200 (I never owned an HD100, but I bet the story was similar). It's a great little box. And it works very well with Sage software, because Frey controls both the hardware and software sides of the experience.

I can't say for sure but I don't believe that Sage designs nor controls the HW on their extenders. They are designed so that customers like Sage can customize with their own firmware. (And logo)

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

Based on that, I believe Frey would sell a better HDPVR-type product than Hauppauge, better defined to be "works well with Sage".

My suggestion about Frey contracting with Hauppauge is based on the presumption that the hardware expertise to build an HDPVR-like device is substantially different from that needed to build an HD200-like device. So rather than re-invent the wheel, why not work with someone who almost has a good product, and develop a great one?

...

I am positive that Sage has worked very closely with Hauppauge since long before the HDPVR was released so the close partnership already exists.

Even if a better partnership could do a better job of identifying and fixing these issues in the future why would Hauppage make a 'fixed' version of the HDPVR just for Sage but not for themselves? Because Hauppauge is willing to sign an agreement that lets Sage get exclusive rights the the 'fixed' version and continue selling the 'broke' one under their own name? I don't think Hauppauge is that stupid.

More likely is that Hauppage would alter the design for the entire production line and then there would be no need for a special Sage version of the HDPVR.

S

[Diego Garcia]

No, Greg, I meant "access to the guts" in a way that would allow Sage to integrate their software better with the hardware. I presume, since the HDPVR is designed to work with multiple software packages, there were some compromises made in the interest of holding down costs. Or, if not, that a higher level of complexity was built into the HDPVR than is necessary for Sage so that the HDPVR can work with other software.

Making a Sage-specific HDPVR is what I had in mind.

[Diego Garcia]

S and Fuzzy,

Good points, and they would certainly explain why Hauppauge would be less than enthusiastic about my idea .

But Hauppauge isn't the only company that can build HD digitizing hardware (or at least I hope they aren't ).

A Hauppauge competitor might be interested in a Sage partnership because Hauppauge has pioneered the market for them...with what is generally viewed as being at best a mediocre product. If it were possible to build a reliable HDPVR-like device for Sage they could own that market segment.

Would it be big enough to make it worthwhile for someone to build such a device? I don't know. But it could be.

[Diego Garcia]

BTW, I just noticed that AverMedia came out (or announced) a USB-based HD encoding device. I gather it isn't supported by Sage yet (or maybe it is by now), but hopefully this means competition in this space is heating up.

[Fuzzy]

Avermedia themselves say that it is ONLY supported by their own software (AverMediaCenter). They also offer it in a PCI-e flavor. I'm not aware of anyone who has gotten it to see if it'd work (or be made to work) with sage yet. That said, Brent has posted on his blog that SageTV is in talks with AverMedia about getting it supported in Sage.

Another interesting note about the HD-DVR... the USB version is listed at $199... the PCI-e version, however, is listed at just $99 (refurbished for $75)... No IR Blaster, Receiver, and just stereo sound, but for most, once it IS supported, it should work pretty good. It also suports not just H.264, but MPEG-2. So you may end up with more 'usable' files. Not sure on the compression rates available though.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

S and Fuzzy,

Good points, and they would certainly explain why Hauppauge would be less than enthusiastic about my idea .

But Hauppauge isn't the only company that can build HD digitizing hardware (or at least I hope they aren't ).

A Hauppauge competitor might be interested in a Sage partnership because Hauppauge has pioneered the market for them...with what is generally viewed as being at best a mediocre product. If it were possible to build a reliable HDPVR-like device for Sage they could own that market segment.

Would it be big enough to make it worthwhile for someone to build such a device? I don't know. But it could be.

No Hauppauge didn't pioneered the market for them what did it was the major f-up at ProVideo who posted the Full Source Code for Conexant CX23415 chipset for Windows and Linux now ever one could final make support possable.

There is one other it just it to bad they made hardcoded drivers meaning it can't be interface though GraphEdit there for no DirectShow support.
All other H.264 Hardware Compression are for surveillance there low end 720x480 or 704x480 then the high end one that are professional one costing major dallor.
For now there is nothing in the way of more affordable and give us DirectShow support.
How ever I do know there are Plan for a 1x PCIe H.264 HD Hardware Encoder but who will get there out frist that still up in the air.

[SHS]

As for AverMediaCenter offer it in a PCI-e flavor it software only

[Fuzzy]

Yeah, figured that is why it was cheaper.. still.. I'd trade those CPU Flops doing the MPEG-2 encoding, instead of them doing the more difficult H.264 comskip.. ;-)

[sandor]

http://www.elgato.com/elgato/na/main...oduct3.en.html

so does anyone have any insight into what innards are in ElGato's HD recorder?