Any hope for a Linux client?

[Grant.Edwards]

Is there any hope of having a real Linux client in the near future?

I must say I'm impressed with how well Sage has kept prospective (and
current) customers completely confused about "Placeshifter" vs.
"Client". AFAICT, what they call the linux "client" in the install
instructions isn't actually a Client.

But perhaps I'm wrong -- I've only been researching this for a couple
weeks now, and I may still be confused by the obfuscation. Using
"Client" and "client" to mean two different and incompatible things
was a stroke of genius. And a "client" and "Client" are not just
technically different, the licensing is completely different.

Brilliant.

I realize not everybody can be Shakespeare, but "client" != "Client"?

Since Linux has a "client" but not a "Client", does using the Linux
"client" on a LAN impose a transcoding load on the server, or does it
just play back the media file like a "Client" does?

--
Grant

[tchapin]

I don't understand the distinction you're making.

From the downloads page, there's only mention of Media Center and Placeshifter installations for Linux, not a Client installation.

Are you unhappy with Placeshifter? Someone recently reported success installing the Windows SageTV Client using virtualization.

[bastafidli]

I just downloaded the deb for the placeshifter and installed it on my Ubuntu 10.04 and the menu item says SageTV Client 6.6.1. It totally confused me since this is the first time I have seen this happening.

[tmiranda]

That's normal. Linux does not have a placeshifter and a client, it only has a client. But the client is really a placeshifter - confusing I know.

[mmanville]

I have not looked at the documentation that you say is confusing, but FYI in general computer terminology, if there is a machine that "serves" information from a "server" application, and another machine that has software to receive & send data to/from said "server," it is completely correct -- and most clear -- to call that machine a "client" (small c). So, yes, the placeshifter is most definitely a "client" of the SageTV server application. Just like your web browser right now is running as a client of the SageTV web server that is hosting this board.

This is not something invented by SageTV to confuse you. If you want further confirmation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_%28computing%29

[Grant.Edwards]

Originally Posted by mmanville

I have not looked at the documentation that you say is confusing, but
FYI in general computer terminology, if there is a machine that
"serves" information from a "server" application, and another machine
that has software to receive & send data to/from said "server," it is
completely correct -- and most clear -- to call that machine a
"client" (small c). So, yes, the placeshifter is most definitely a
"client" of the SageTV server application. Just like your web browser
right now is running as a client of the SageTV web server that is
hosting this board.

Yes, we know all know what the words "client" and "server" mean in
general usage.

But in Sage-speak "Client" refers to a specific product with specific
capabilities and a particular licensing model. The Linux "client",
which refers to itself as "SageTV Client version 6.6" is _not_
(AFAICT) what SageTV refers to as a "SageTV Client". The Linux client
is a "Placeshifter client", which is a different product with
different capabilities than a real "Client" and a different licensing
model.

For example, a "Client" can play DVDs. A Placeshifter client cannot.
A Placeshifter license is "floating", a "Client" license isn't.

This is not something invented by SageTV to confuse you.

You're being silly. Of course we know that SageTV didn't invent the
word "client". What they _did_ do was decide to use the work "Client"
to refer to a specific product, and "Placeshifter client" to refer to
a distinctly different product. Then they decide not to ship a
"Client" for Linux, but rather to ship a Placeshifter client and
misleadingly call it "SageTV Client".

[Grant.Edwards]

Originally Posted by tchapin

I don't understand the distinction you're making.

You dont' understand the difference between a "Client" and a
Placeshifter client, or as it's referred to in the Linux install docs
the "client"?

From the downloads page, there's only mention of Media Center and
Placeshifter installations for Linux, not a Client
installation.

There are other places where that download (named miniclient.tar.gz --
note no "placeshifter" in the filename name) is simply referred to as
a "client". If you download a "client" for SageTV, wouldn't expect it
to be the "SageTV Client"?

Are you unhappy with Placeshifter?

Not particularly, though I'm dissappointed it won't play back ripped
DVDs. I was mostly frustrated at how long it took to figure out what
"pieces" I needed to order to do what I wanted to do. For several
days I thought there was a Linux "Client" (after all, I had even
downloaded the tarball for it) and couldn't figure out how to order a
license for it.

Someone recently reported success installing the Windows SageTV Client
using virtualization.

I'm not _that_ dissappointed.

[bcjenkins]

As one who doesn't run Linux as a client (OS X here for daily use) I don't think I can fully appreciate the debate ongoing. However, if I were to run it 2 things pop to mind:

1) HDPVR Playback
2) Ripped DVD support

B

[mmanville]

Originally Posted by Grant.Edwards

You're being silly. Of course we know that SageTV didn't invent the word "client". What they _did_ do was decide to use the work "Client" to refer to a specific product, and "Placeshifter client" to refer to a distinctly different product. Then they decide not to ship a "Client" for Linux, but rather to ship a Placeshifter client and misleadingly call it "SageTV Client".

I'm sorry you feel I am being silly. I am not trying to be, but ... I guess it's maybe best I just leave it at that.

One thing I will question, though, is your last sentence, where you accuse SageTV of referring to a Placeshifter client with the exact term "SageTV Client." Where exactly do they do this?

Furthermore, I don't see that they use the word "Client" along to refer to a product. Where does that occur. To me, they apear to consistently prefix "SageTV" whenever the word "Client" (capital C) appears in reference to a product, never "Client" alone (what you are saying they do in 3rd sentence)

p.s. I understand that you are unhappy not having a SageTV Client for Linux, and that is understandable and reasonable you want it, and for SageTV to someday provide it. I just think you may be going a little off the track here suggesting that SageTV is intentionally choosing language to mislead customers that this is the case. That was the reason I posted my "silly" comment that SageTV is using the term "client" for its placeshifter product in a completely appropriate way, from a technical perspective. I literally cannot think of a better word than "client."

[Grant.Edwards]

Originally Posted by mmanville

I'm sorry you feel I am being silly. I am not trying to be,

Perhaps not silly but at least hyperbolic. Of course you didn't
seriously think that we didn't know that the word "client" was in
common usage before SageTv came along any more than I seriously
thought the confusion caused by SageTv's "client" terminology was
intentional.

but ... I guess it's maybe best I just leave it at that.

I'm glad you haven't been confused by SageTv's terminology, but I have
been, and so have others [as they've stated in this thread]. Such
confusion could easily have been avoided if SageTv was consistent in
usage documentation. It's all perfectly clear if you already know
what they mean.

One thing I will question, though, is your last sentence, where you
accuse SageTV of referring to a Placeshifter client with the exact
term "SageTV Client." Where exactly do they do this?

Other posters have noted that the debian packages provide by sagetv
refer to the Linux placeshifter client as "SageTv Client 6.x".

The place that caused me the most confusion was the Linux install
page, where there are statements like this:

SageTV for linux is divided in two programs, the server and the client.

[...]

Client setup

The client has the same dependencies as the server except the ivtv
driver.

[...]

You can download the client package from
http://download.sagetv.com/linuxweb/miniclient.tar.gz
and extract it in a new directory (/opt/sagetv/client for example)
then run it by starting the sageclient.sh script.

Perhaps my reading skills are sub-part, but when a SageTv web page
refers to "Client" and "client", I assume they're talking about
SageTv Client.

Furthermore, I don't see that they use the word "Client" along to
refer to a product. Where does that occur. To me, they apear to
consistently prefix "SageTV" whenever the word "Client" (capital C)
appears in reference to a product, never "Client" alone (what you are
saying they do in 3rd sentence)

So when SageTv refers to "Client", a reader would naturally assume
they mean "Placeshifter" rather than "SageTv Client"?

p.s. I understand that you are unhappy not having a SageTV Client for
Linux,

Not really. 99% of the time I plan on using a Mac OS X Client or
HD200. What I was unhappy about was the time I wasted trying to
figure out the Linux client vs. placeshifter situation so that I could
decide what to order.

and that is understandable and reasonable you want it, and for SageTV
to someday provide it. I just think you may be going a little off the
track here suggesting that SageTV is intentionally choosing language
to mislead customers that this is the case.

The part suggesting it was intentional was irony.

I should have known better. Irony and the Internet don't mix well.

That was the reason I posted my "silly" comment that SageTV is using
the term "client" for its placeshifter product in a completely
appropriate way, from a technical perspective. I literally cannot
think of a better word than "client."

I can.

When referring to Placeshifter, one might best use the word
"Placeshifter" instead of "Client" or "client". Especially when one
has a different product named "Client".

[blade]

I'm not debating the use of the word client, but just wanted to point out that the Linux distro is actually geared toward OEMs and even states so on the main page. It was made available to end users because a lot of people wanted it.

Keeping that in mind I wouldn't expect the documentation to be all that user friendly. IMO describing the functionality of the product to end users would fall more on the OEM to create since it would be sold as a prepackaged setup. Of course that is if you purchased your Linux setup from an OEM.

[mmanville]

Grant.Edwards, I think you're a bit sensitive about all of this. Digging deep into the bowels of a Debian distro documentation file and complaining that "Client" being capitalized in that one place -- when it appears to be a document section heading, which should be capitalized! -- is straying into those waters, don't you think?

I am just saying this directly this time, because I don't want to be accused again of being "hyperbolic." If you want to believe that SageTV is deliberately creating confusion to trick you, then ... so be it. I think this is all I can say on this subject.