Curious... Why SageTV over Mediaportal (or other alternatives)??

[alfi33]

I tried MediaPortal before I tried SageTV and I liked it. However, the deal breaker for me was that I was unable to consistently get good EPG data.

[trini0]

I started with BeyondTV, which as a PVR I didn't have any problems with at the time.
What drove me to SageTV was native support for DVDs/Music

[Polypro]

I purchased a new PC in early 2004 (Sony VAIO Desktop) and it had MCE 2004 on it. I thought it was the coolest thing on the planet to watch TV on your PC. Unfortunately, (or fortunately!) MCE 20004 was a nightmare of stability. I don't remember if I Googled "Media Center Software" or if the MaximumPC "Home Theater PC" issue came out first, but I ended up finding out about SageTV 1.4...and haven't looked back. (the forum, customization and no DRM were the key points that helped me choose).

P

[PiX64]

Without a doubt for me was extender support.. Who wants pc's sitting everywhere in the house...not I

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by stlbearboy

Also comskip works on sage extender but not on popcorn hour extender

Actually comskip has been working with GBPVR/NMT for a couple of months now.

Martin

[tmiranda]

I started out with BeyondTV. When Sage started supporting the MVP as an extender I switched and never looked back.

[valnar]

This is a pretty easy question.

Sage just works.


The others "just" don't (without major tweaking or upkeep).

[freedml]

Sage has never 'just worked' for me.

Sage may be the best software/software package of its kind available but in my case it has needed constant tweaking, has never 'just worked' and still doesn't work properly. Sage doesn't have the tools for even a power user to be able to troubleshoot his own problems, and they won't get on the phone and walk you through anything no matter how long problems persist. Tech support is often wrong in their diagnosis, but their misdiagnoses have inadvertently led me to find some of the solutions. It's been a year of 'hell' to get Sage to work kinda sorta.

[Fuzzy]

I'd have to say that freedml's experience seems to be out of the ordinary. A basic setup of SageTV, especially using extenders, and reliable source devices is very stable and easy to configure (especially compared to the other options out there).

[valnar]

Originally Posted by freedml

Sage has never 'just worked' for me.

Sage may be the best software/software package of its kind available but in my case it has needed constant tweaking, has never 'just worked' and still doesn't work properly. Sage doesn't have the tools for even a power user to be able to troubleshoot his own problems, and they won't get on the phone and walk you through anything no matter how long problems persist. Tech support is often wrong in their diagnosis, but their misdiagnoses have inadvertently led me to find some of the solutions. It's been a year of 'hell' to get Sage to work kinda sorta.

I'm sorry to hear that, but in my estimation, there are hundreds if not thousands of users to where it works fine. I have three friends who I turned onto Sage and including myself, there is nary a hiccup.

However, I'm not discounting that others are less fortunate than our experience, but in the theme of this thread, have you tried Sage alternatives that are more problem free?

[freedml]

My problems may be out of the ordinary, but that's what 'tech support' is for. I generally don't need 'tech support' so when I DO need it it's usually a difficult problem.

Some problems aren't difficult. wMVPs were never going to work well and it took me months to figure that out when Sage could just say they don't support wireless. Even wired, MVPs are lousy because of transcoding. Had to figure that one out myself, too. Now I'm stuck with 3 wMVPS and 3 extra Placeshifter licenses.

Placeshifter doesn't work well on the local network because it ASSumes plenty of bandwidth when there isn't ever enough bandwidth on a wireless network. And if I try to tweak it to work with my local wireless network then those settings don't work well when I'm watching over the internet. And one set of settings applies to every way of connecting when each way should be able to have its own set of customized settings.

Speaking of Placeshifter, I've had to go into my router and network settings to get it to work. Every other communications-intensive package I've used has figured that out by itself with no user input required.

One problem with Sage is that a common solution recommended is 'use the latest beta.' So, we all end up being 'beta testers' whether we want to or not.

Then there was the defective HD200. I have 3 of them and this one caused all 3 to go down at once multiple times a day. Sage decided that my switch or cabling was defective, so I configured a switch/cable test and that problem suddenly disappeared when I disconnected the problematic HD200 from the network and has not returned when I attached the replacement HD200. But Sage hasn't been able to duplicate the problem in-house so they assume that the problem is me, not the HD200. I think the problem is in their test methods or equipment.

I'm sure I've 'blocked out' other problems. And some remain, and are reported by other users, so it's not just me or my setup.

My current theory is that the HD200 doesn't handle errors in the video file well and, being a 'fringe' OTA user I have a lot of errors, seen and unseen. The HD200 should never get 'stuck', but if it does there should be a way to 'cold boot' the HD200 from the remote no matter what has happened (like it does by itself after a firmware update) so you don't have to get up and pull the plug, which happens probably once a day on average around our house.

Sadly, my family has gotten use to SageTV being flaky. They just roll their eyes, get up, and pull the plug when it fails. This started as a joke, but I'm seriously considering buying 'The Clapper' for each HD200.

[valnar]

At the risk of creating a flame war.... anybody could have told you wireless was a bad idea. You didn't need to get the blessing from Sage tech support to come to that conclusion. Yah, the MVP's suck - even wired. They worked as advertised, and you needed a beefy server for the transcoding, but in light of the new HDx00 series, I replaced mine awhile ago.

Are you saying you needed to open ports on your firewall so Placeshifter can communicate with your Sage server from the Internet? Well of course! Or did I misinterpret your statement? However, I can say that using Placeshifter on the local LAN is not the recommended setup. That's what the Sage Client is for. But neither will work well over 802.11 wireless.

Regarding wireless - it's a collision domain. Anything more than one wireless client will take away from all, and that's assuming you have no interference from outside. So in your example (I don't know if you did this), using one or more wireless MVP's or a Placeshifter client on a laptop with wireless simultaneously is a recipe for disaster.

A bad H200 is certainly unfortunate. Stuff happens. I had a bad Jetdirect card take down a whole branch at work until we found it. 'tis the pitfalls of a broadcast domain.

The fringe reception is certainly not Sage's fault, but perhaps they could put in better error correction on the HD200. Do those files play fine on Sage within Windows/Linux directly? Have you tried your tuners in another PVR product where the resulting spotty files play fine? Have you used a Tivo or another product within the same reception area?

Sage may certainly be at fault for some of your bad experience (like subpar tech support), but that's not to say another product would be any better in your situation. I'm sorry for your troubles.

[freedml]

Maybe anyone COULD have told me wireless was a bad idea or multiple MVPs wouldn't work well because of the transcoding load on the server, but no one at Sage did. I came to that conclusion myself after months of back and forth with them. As you can see, I bought HD200s to eliminate the transcoding load and wired the house in the middle of my MVP woes.

It wasn't just opening ports for PS. I had to setup a static IP and redirect incoming traffic to it. I use remote terminal software a lot and it accomplishes much more with the same hardware (traffic going to and from multple PCs at one time) without any specific 'setup' on my part. Maybe there was an easier way but Sage wouldn't help me so I got it done with help from Linksys.

PS needs to monitor and adjust for available bandwidth on the local network just the way it does over the internet. Why treat it differently?

I'm not interested in Client because I have a bunch of PCs and I don't want to buy licenses for each one when I use them only once in a while. They should really all use the same pooled PS licenses and eliminate the confusion. PS works fine over the wired part of my lan.

I think I said that Sage is probably better than anything else out there, but, yes, in my opinion the HD200 doesn't handle errors well at all, Sage doesn't have user-friendly tools for troubleshooting, and is basically a 'hobbyist, geek' product. Luckily, I'm a hobbyist/geek. But at times Sage has been a full-time job and I still have not been able to get it to work more than 99%.

The files play the same (sometimes fine, sometimes not) but the HD200 seems to get 'gunked up' and stops after a while where I have never experienced that on the server or via Placeshifter.

Fringe OTA might be problematic now, but it was much worse in the analog days.

Haven't used tivo here, haven't tried these tuners with other DVR software.

One tuner was bad and is now replaced. The 'error messages' were a big help in finding this problem, but remember, that feature has only been around for a short time. Other parts of the system need similar tools.

I have found that SageTV assumes their software and hardware work correctly until you prove them wrong. It shouldn't be that way. They should always consider the possibility that there is something wrong with their hardware or software.

[paulbeers]

I still think you are under volting your switch in your attic. If all you did was use the original walwart and 30+ feet of ethernet. Which is why Sage is stating you having a network or cabling issue. The problem with DIY things such as "POE" is that may people don't really know what they are doing.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by valnar

At the risk of creating a flame war.... anybody could have told you wireless was a bad idea. You didn't need to get the blessing from Sage tech support to come to that conclusion. Yah, the MVP's suck - even wired. They worked as advertised, and you needed a beefy server for the transcoding, but in light of the new HDx00 series, I replaced mine awhile ago.

That's not entirely true. I had an wMVP before I got an HD100. For about a year I was using it wirelessly- sort of. The radio in the wMVP was exceptionally bad, so I wouldn't say it worked as advertised. I was never able to get streaming video working with the wMVP directly, but when I hooked it up to a WRT54G configured as a bridge with DD-WRT, it worked fine. I think the awful quality of the wMVP is a big reason that wireless has such a stigma on these boards, and is probably partially to blame for the long wait to see wireless support on the HD extenders. Now I have my HD100 hooked up using a 802.11n bridge and it's been working fine for the last year. I'm even in an apartment building with about 15 APs in sight. Though, admittedly, only 1 of those is a 802.11n, and my bridge works in the 5Ghz band.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

I think the awful quality of the wMVP is a big reason that wireless has such a stigma on these boards,

Wireless has a well deserved poor reputation with any group that's (tried to) use it with media. It's just not very reliable. It can work, but it's utterly impossible to know if it will without trying, and it's also impossible to know if it will keep working. Just far too many variables and not a robust enough protocol.

...and is probably partially to blame for the long wait to see wireless support on the HD extenders.

Probably, but that's a good thing. Frankly I think it was good Sage didn't include wireless in the HD extenders. G just really isn't "enough" for HD, which is the focus of the HD extenders, and even with N it's far from guaranteed.

I think they've got the right tact with them now, with the planned support for USB WiFi adapters. Then the user can take their chances if they want.

Now I have my HD100 hooked up using a 802.11n bridge and it's been working fine for the last year. I'm even in an apartment building with about 15 APs in sight. Though, admittedly, only 1 of those is a 802.11n, and my bridge works in the 5Ghz band.

You're using an as yet uncommon band, AND you're very lucky IMO. And being an apartment, I'm guessing you're pretty close to the AP to boot.

Wireless is a crap shoot, plain and simple.

[valnar]

Originally Posted by reggie14

That's not entirely true. I had an wMVP before I got an HD100. For about a year I was using it wirelessly- sort of. The radio in the wMVP was exceptionally bad, so I wouldn't say it worked as advertised. I was never able to get streaming video working with the wMVP directly, but when I hooked it up to a WRT54G configured as a bridge with DD-WRT, it worked fine. I think the awful quality of the wMVP is a big reason that wireless has such a stigma on these boards, and is probably partially to blame for the long wait to see wireless support on the HD extenders. Now I have my HD100 hooked up using a 802.11n bridge and it's been working fine for the last year. I'm even in an apartment building with about 15 APs in sight. Though, admittedly, only 1 of those is a 802.11n, and my bridge works in the 5Ghz band.

I know a lot about 802.11x - I deal with it everyday. My first recommendation to all my users is to plug in to Ethernet if its anywhere near them.

In a perfect environment, 802.11g is enough for SD video and may be enough for some HD video. But a perfect environment hardly exists. 802.11n is certainly better, until others start using the same around you...

In defense of Sage, which I admit I seem to do a lot in this thread (no, I don't work for them), the Hauppauge wMVP came with wireless. They simply retrofitted the firmware to their product. I think if they had the choice, wireless would be omitted, something they obviously agreed with in the HDx00 series. There is no reason to fight the headache that is wireless, and I don't blame them for keeping it out of their HD extenders.

[Fuzzy]

Also realize that when sage implemented MVP support, HD was NOT the normal use for sage. Most/nearly all users were using MPEG2 SD capture cards, which the MVP does without transcoding just fine. It met the needs at the time just fine. Sage COULD have just left the MVP's capabilities at that, but instead, when HD started becoming the norm, they gave you two options. Use their 'transcoding' feature, or upgrade the extender. Each has pros/cons, just like any purchase decision.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by valnar

I know a lot about 802.11x - I deal with it everyday. My first recommendation to all my users is to plug in to Ethernet if its anywhere near them.

Certainly. Obviously wireless will never be as reliable as wired, but sometimes its just not feasible. Sometimes you can't even do MoCA. And, at least from the research I did, powerline networking is even worse than 802.11n wireless, unless you live in a really crowded environment.

In defense of Sage, which I admit I seem to do a lot in this thread (no, I don't work for them), the Hauppauge wMVP came with wireless. They simply retrofitted the firmware to their product. I think if they had the choice, wireless would be omitted, something they obviously agreed with in the HDx00 series.

Perhaps. Certainly the quality of the wireless components were Hauppauge's fault and not Sage's. I think Sage did sell both the wireless and the wired MVP, so I'm not completely convinced they would have omitted wireless in the first place. If memory serves, they did continue to sell the wired MVP after they pulled the wMVP, indicating to me they lost confidence in the ability of the wMVP to work as it was supposed to.

They might have sold the wMVP at first because it had digital audio-out before the wired MVP did. That's the main reason I got the wMVP. I hoped it would work wirelessly, but I had already heard people were having lots of problems with it. The newer MVPs had digital audio-out, but it was impossible to know if you were going to get a new one or an old one.

Mostly I think the reason for omitting wireless in the HD extenders was cost, which makes perfect sense. Wireless should be a last resort, so it makes sense to keep it out of every product by default. I think what they're doing with the HD200 is a good compromise. It makes it possible to use the HD200 wirelessly, but basically sends the message it's not a great idea.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Most/nearly all users were using MPEG2 SD capture cards, which the MVP does without transcoding just fine. It met the needs at the time just fine. Sage COULD have just left the MVP's capabilities at that, but instead, when HD started becoming the norm, they gave you two options. Use their 'transcoding' feature, or upgrade the extender. Each has pros/cons, just like any purchase decision.

I'm not really sure what you're responding to. I think the MVPs were wonderful devices, at least when you consider when they came out. They were relatively cheap and did the job of playing back standard definition mpeg2 quite well. And Sage did a great job supporting them.

Though, I don't entirely agree with your characterization of the transcoding feature. That came out before the HD extenders, so it wasn't like people had the option (at first) to either use transcoding or buy the HD100. I thought Sage did a nice job on the transcoding feature. They did a nice job of working around the MVP's limitations.