Whole house distribution Sage vs. Video Matrix Switches

[wayner]

On some other forums that I monitor people discuss whole house video distribution using stuff like 4x4 Video Matrix switches, baluns to allow you to distribute HDMI over Cat5/6 (or ethernet over coax or even Wireless N) or running component video cables through your house.

I totally don't understand why you would do any of the above when you can buy something like an HD-200 (or even one of its competitors) and just need Cat-5 to each room where you want to distribute video. This is especially the case now that you can use the HD-200 to easily play BluRay.

Matrix switches generally cost well over $1000 and baluns and the cabling discussed is not at all cheap.

Am I missing something here? Is there any disadvantage to using Sage extenders vs. the alternative?

[GKusnick]

A matrix switch allows you to feed multiple zones from the same source with perfect sync. You can't do that with Sage, because each client does its own decoding at its own clock speed, with no mechanism for keeping them in sync.

A matrix switch also lets you switch easily between multiple sources (e.g. Sage server, satellite DVR, DVD player, etc.) without having to pipe everything through Sage.

[Slipshod]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

A matrix switch allows you to feed multiple zones from the same source with perfect sync. You can't do that with Sage, because each client does its own decoding at its own clock speed, with no mechanism for keeping them in sync.

A matrix switch also lets you switch easily between multiple sources (e.g. Sage server, satellite DVR, DVD player, etc.) without having to pipe everything through Sage.

Out of curiosity, what are people doing that makes either of these features really compelling? They don't seem all that useful to me and how I access my media. The second one actually seems counter-productive, since being able to pipe all that through Sage was a key feature to me...

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Slipshod

Out of curiosity, what are people doing that makes either of these features really compelling? They don't seem all that useful to me and how I access my media. The second one actually seems counter-productive, since being able to pipe all that through Sage was a key feature to me...

In my whole-house (actually whole-condo) system, Sage is just one video source out of several. When I signed up for DirecTV service a few years ago, they were offering a free DVR promotion, so I took it. We use this DVR box as a backup to Sage, not as part of the Sage system, so for that purpose it remains separate from the Sage system.

I'm not a DVD packrat; I don't have a library of hundreds of ripped movies. Most of the DVDs we watch are rentals, and for that purpose it's convenient to have a standalone player near the TV instead of having to stick them in a headless server in a closet.

The matrix switch and whole-house component cabling make it easy to switch any of these sources to any screen in the condo. As a bonus feature (although I don't use it very often) I can also pipe the output of my desktop/gaming PC through the switch to any screen.

Multi-zone sync matters because my condo has an open floor plan where (for instance) the kitchen audio can easily be heard from the living room and vice versa. If I have the same content playing in both of those zones (as I often do), it had better be in perfect sync or it gets annoying real fast. Similarly, it's very handy to be able to hit Pause in the kitchen, carry my meal through to the living room, and hit Resume. Or if I'm starting to nod off in front of the living room screen, I can pipe it through to the bedroom and finish watching in there. Feeding all three screens through a matrix switch from a single Sage client makes this very easy.

Whether you find these reasons compelling may depend on whether you're trying to retrofit an existing dwelling at minimal cost and disruption, or include a whole-house distribution system as part of a larger remodel or new construction project. In the latter case, it makes sense to run every kind of cable you can to all rooms while you have the walls open, and the incremental cost of a matrix switch isn't all that much compared to the total project budget.

[m1abrams]

Another disadvantage for SageTV is scalability. It does not take too many clients and a few HD recordings to bring SageTV to its knees. Problem here is that a single Sage server still has to support random reads from a small number of drives. If this is a single drive the limit I have found is about 2 HD recordings and 2 clients at one time. And this problem is not as easy to solve as adding more drives because 1 Sage does not load balance recordings based on drive activity. 2nd who is to say all the clients will not want to all watch a different show that just happens that all of them were recorded to the same drive.

RAID can help here but RAID really does not excel that well at random access which is the issue. SSD will help a lot but they are still out of my price range for the amount I would need.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

RAID can help here but RAID really does not excel that well at random access which is the issue. SSD will help a lot but they are still out of my price range for the amount I would need.

Price and capacity aside I'm not sure that the current crop of SSD's have the longevity required for this type of duty. Particularly if you have intelligent recording enabled.

[wayner]

Thanks for the feedback folks - I hadn't considered all of these types of issues.

@m1abrams - I have been able to record 2xHD-PVR, 1xHD OTA and 1xSD at the same time without problems.

@GKusnick - In terms of moving around your house and resuming a show where you left off. Can't you do this with extenders? Sure you have to wait for the extender to boot up but assuming that you don't leave all of your TVs on then even with your setup you have to wait for the TV to turn on which is about the same time as it takes for a HD-200 to turn on. Then you have a couple of more clicks to resume your show but it is not too much work.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

Another disadvantage for SageTV is scalability. It does not take too many clients and a few HD recordings to bring SageTV to its knees. Problem here is that a single Sage server still has to support random reads from a small number of drives. If this is a single drive the limit I have found is about 2 HD recordings and 2 clients at one time.

I have to disagree with you here. As a test, I have recordered 4 HD feeds, 2 SD feeds, and played back 1 HD (on a client) and 1 SD feed (on the server, doesn't have a HD screen) all at the same time, on server 2 listed in the sig. There was no problems at all. No blips on the recordings, no blips on the playback! Oh, and that was on a single drive. The drives were change well after that.

Originally Posted by m1abrams

And this problem is not as easy to solve as adding more drives because 1 Sage does not load balance recordings based on drive activity. 2nd who is to say all the clients will not want to all watch a different show that just happens that all of them were recorded to the same drive.

I'm 90% sure I saw where they were going to change that. They were going to add options soon (nothing in sight though) that would say always split recordings across drives. If I remember right (maybe I was dreaming), they were adding a much smarter drive/recording tool, that would try to record balance and space balance at the same time.

Also, you can force a recording balance now. Forgot the property you have to add, but you can force a recorder to a drive, but you loose space balance.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by wayner

Can't you do this with extenders? Sure you have to wait for the extender to boot up but assuming that you don't leave all of your TVs on then even with your setup you have to wait for the TV to turn on which is about the same time as it takes for a HD-200 to turn on. Then you have a couple of more clicks to resume your show but it is not too much work.

I think Sage remembers where EACH extender is. You'd have to FF to the correct place, as it thinks you are a different person.

Sage REALLY needs to get a user system working.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

I think Sage remembers where EACH extender is. You'd have to FF to the correct place, as it thinks you are a different person.

Sage REALLY needs to get a user system working.

Not for me it doesn't - I have four extenders and one client. When I pause at one extender and go to another it remembers where I paused. I am not 100% sure if that is just pressing pause or if that entails actually going back to the TV menu or closing the extender but it definitely picks up where you left off across multiple extenders/clients.

If you are saying that if someone else is watching and pauses then it screws up where you were then I can see what you're saying. But that isn't an issue in my house - the wife doesn't tend to watch my hockey or basketball games, nor does my daughter, and I don't tend to watch Dora.

[sleonard]

I have had 3 extenders watching 3 different recorded HD shows while the server was recording 3 new HD shows at the same time using a single drive and had no issues. There have been reports of significantly more than that in these forums. If your having issues with just 2 clients/2 recordings something is wrong with your system, HW, or network.

The watched status is per recording not per client. On a few occasions I have wished that it were not so when I began watching a recording on my extender and found that it started in the middle because my son began watching it 25 minutes before me on his extender.

S

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

A matrix switch allows you to feed multiple zones from the same source with perfect sync.

You are just talking about audio right? There would be no reason to sync the same video playing in different rooms I don't think. If so, I pipe my audio through Sonos players located around the house, which can sync up to 32 zones absolutely perfectly (and it just works 5 minutes out of the box, with no ongoing support).

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by m1abrams

Another disadvantage for SageTV is scalability. It does not take too many clients and a few HD recordings to bring SageTV to its knees. Problem here is that a single Sage server still has to support random reads from a small number of drives.

I use two hard drives, but last night I was recording 5 different shows:

2 HD Mpeg2 via QAM (1 from HVR2250 and 1 from HDHomerun)
1 HD Mpeg2 via OTA (from my HDHomerun)
1 SD Mpeg2 via Dish 311 (from my HVR2250)
1 HD h.264 via Dish VIP211 (from my HD-PVR)

While watching two HD shows on two different extenders and had no problems what so ever. This was all at 8:00 last night.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by wayner

@GKusnick - In terms of moving around your house and resuming a show where you left off. Can't you do this with extenders?

Yes, I do that too sometimes, for instance when moving from the kitchen to my office (where I use SageTV Client). In that case it involves stopping playback on one client, firing up another client, navigating the menus and recording lists (and maybe adjusting filters) to find the same program again, and then pushing play to resume approximately where I left off. So yes, it's doable, but nowhere near as slick as just hitting Pause, Off in one room and then On, Play in the other to pick up exactly where I paused.

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

There would be no reason to sync the same video playing in different rooms I don't think.

Sure there is, if it has a sound track. Bear in mind that in my case these "different rooms" are open to each other, with the two screens basically back-to-back on a freestanding wall partition, one facing toward the kitchen and the other toward the living room. Think of a sports bar with three or four screens in various corners of the room, all showing the same game. You expect them all to be in sync, so everyone's cheering (or booing) the same plays at the same time.

(And I just knew you were going to work a plug for Sonos into this thread somehow.)

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

(And I just knew you were going to work a plug for Sonos into this thread somehow.)

Who, me?

[wayner]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Whether you find these reasons compelling may depend on whether you're trying to retrofit an existing dwelling at minimal cost and disruption, or include a whole-house distribution system as part of a larger remodel or new construction project. In the latter case, it makes sense to run every kind of cable you can to all rooms while you have the walls open, and the incremental cost of a matrix switch isn't all that much compared to the total project budget.

That could be a lot of types of cable. I have had an HDTV for 10 years. In that period we have had three types of cables for carrying HD signals - component, DVI and HDMI, with several different flavours of HDMI. My latest Dell laptop comes with Display Port which is, apparently, a competitor to HDMI.

[MrD]

I have both a matrix switch and extenders. The matrix switch is to support 3 400 DVD changers (yes I do have that many DVDs )

The switch works great at multiple locations, but the complexity in supporting multiple zones and concurrent viewing with Girder exceeded my patience.

Now that hard drive space has reached a threshold where the cost per dvd is less than the cost per dvd in the changer; I will be converting the DVDs to my RAID array and using the extenders.

With the extenders I can have my kids watch two different DVDs and my wife and I can watch something else concurrently, something the matrix switch would irritate me with.

Now if only Sage had decent video library support

[aflat]

Originally Posted by wayner

That could be a lot of types of cable. I have had an HDTV for 10 years. In that period we have had three types of cables for carrying HD signals - component, DVI and HDMI, with several different flavours of HDMI. My latest Dell laptop comes with Display Port which is, apparently, a competitor to HDMI.

Monoprice FTW here. They have a displayport->hdmi converter for like $13 or so. Since they are both hdcp compliant, you don't have to worry about down conversion.

[sic0048]

There are also a plethera of used matrix switches out there. It isn't hard to find a really nice HD capable Autopatch on E-Bay for $300-$400. So the price issue isn't as bad as one might think.

Take my parents for example. It is only my Mom and Dad living in their house now, but they have 6 TVs that they use regularly (Master Bedroom, Master bath, Office, Sunroom, Den, Downstairs Den/Theater). So either they need 6 HD Extenders which is kind of a waste since they will never use more than two at a time, or they can get 2 extenders and a matrix switch and have more flexability and spend less money overall. This is the route I took with them. Besides the two HD extenders, they also have a Wii, local DVD player and HD-DVD player all hooked up to the matrix switch too. So it allows them a much more flexible system overall.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by MrD

Now if only Sage had decent video library support

I like the video library support in sage. Although, I haven't put all of my dvd's and blu-ray's on hard disks yet. What about the library support don't you like. Just curious...

I also record 3 HD shows at once using a hvr-1600 and a hvr-2250 and watch one show while the recording is being done. No problems so far...

This topic is interesting to me because I will eventually have a whole house system based off of sage. So keep it coming.