BLU-Ray & SageTV - The Roadmap

[moamoa]

I have sage working great on my nice big plasma for TV and DVD's and so on. I would really like to be able to get the most from my HD TV now and start watching some HD movies.

Obviously, I could get a standalone BLU-Ray player or PS3, but i don't really want to do that.

I really want to get a BLU-Ray drive for my HTPC and play it via Sage just like a DVD. However, I understand that this is not possible.

Can someone summarize why this is not possible and possibly give some kind of roadmap as to when these problems may be solved and seemless BRU-Ray playing may work in Sage.

To have to exit out of Sage Media Center to play the best type of HD media, seems a big whole in what is a media center, so to me, this would seem a core feature ongoing.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by moamoa

Can someone summarize why this is not possible and possibly give some kind of roadmap as to when these problems may be solved and seemless BRU-Ray playing may work in Sage.

It's not impossible, just very difficult and highly unlikely. AACS caries with it some significant robustness requirements with respect to security of AACS content (Blu-ray and HD DVD). Basically it says you must guarantee that the user cannot gain access to the decrypted content.

Directshow (the architecture Sage uses for DVD/Media playback) is incapable of the level of security necessary, and thus one cannot get an AACS license to pay content via DirectShow. SageTV, in order to play AACS content, would have to write their own media playback engine that interfaces directly with the graphics card via COPP in order to be able to play AACS content. Oh, and if SageTV were compromised and allowed the user access to AACS content, they'd be facing an $8,000,000 fine from AACS for the breach.

There's currently a great deal of risk with supporting the HD formats, and their user base is incredibly small (I don't think any movie has come close to selling even 100,000 copies).

To have to exit out of Sage Media Center to play the best type of HD media, seems a big whole in what is a media center, so to me, this would seem a core feature ongoing.

FWIW, even Vista Media Center has the same limitation. Currently our best "hope" for HD DVD and Blu-ray playback in apps like Sage (which rely on the OS and 3rd party decoders/filtes), is Vista with it's PVP-OPM. With that it should be theoretically possible to create a Blu-ray or HD DVD "decoder pack", which SageTV and other 3rd party apps can leverage.

[moamoa]

That's a bit clearer now.

Would it not be possible in the short term to have a plugin, such as the winamp one, which would play the bluray movie using an external application (such as windvd or whatever (i don't know?)), but controlled from within sage.

The winamp plugin works prefectly like this, would this not be a good shot term workaround?

Plugin writers please step forward

[stanger89]

The thing with winamp (note that I haven't used that plugin) is it can operate just fine even if the winamp window isn't in focus and can't be seen.

With a video app, it's much trickier because you need to give the application focus, else you can't see the video.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by stanger89

It's not impossible, just very difficult and highly unlikely. AACS caries with it some significant robustness requirements with respect to security of AACS content (Blu-ray and HD DVD). Basically it says you must guarantee that the user cannot gain access to the decrypted content.

Directshow (the architecture Sage uses for DVD/Media playback) is incapable of the level of security necessary, and thus one cannot get an AACS license to pay content via DirectShow. SageTV, in order to play AACS content, would have to write their own media playback engine that interfaces directly with the graphics card via COPP in order to be able to play AACS content. Oh, and if SageTV were compromised and allowed the user access to AACS content, they'd be facing an $8,000,000 fine from AACS for the breach.

There's currently a great deal of risk with supporting the HD formats, and their user base is incredibly small (I don't think any movie has come close to selling even 100,000 copies).



FWIW, even Vista Media Center has the same limitation. Currently our best "hope" for HD DVD and Blu-ray playback in apps like Sage (which rely on the OS and 3rd party decoders/filtes), is Vista with it's PVP-OPM. With that it should be theoretically possible to create a Blu-ray or HD DVD "decoder pack", which SageTV and other 3rd party apps can leverage.

First off, I don't understand the logic here. Sage can't even play encrypted DVD's on it's own, yet it supports DVD playback from a DVD drive, as well as from hard disk. It's left to the user to deal with crypto.

Why not have the same support for Blue-ray and HD-DVD? Implement all the required codecs, container processing and such, and then it'll be the same way as it is for DVD?

The encryption issue is a canard. If that was such a big deal, Sage wouldn't support DVD playback from hard disk.

Thanks,
Mike

[Opus4]

I don't know anything about blu-ray, HD-DVD, and such, but:

Originally Posted by mikesm

Sage can't even play encrypted DVD's on it's own, yet it supports DVD playback from a DVD drive, as well as from hard disk. It's left to the user to deal with crypto.

The encryption issue is a canard. If that was such a big deal, Sage wouldn't support DVD playback from hard disk.

Like you said: SageTV does not play encrypted DVD content on its own. For commercial DVD playback, SageTV requires that you have a DVD-capable decoder installed, one that can play encrypted DVDs, that is.

But, being able to play encrypted DVD-ROMs via DVD decoders has nothing to do with playing non-encrypted hard drive based DVDs, via the MVP for example. Not all DVDs have to be encrypted -- remember that you can create your own DVDs at home. Such never-encrypted DVD content can be on a hard drive or DVD disk. Playing such DVD content requires no special encryption handling or any method to break encryption, since it wasn't there in the first place. If, by definition, all current DVD content was encrypted and required a special decoder, I'm not sure whether hard drive based DVD playback would be possible.

Essentially, all I'm throwing into the mix here is that not all DVD content is encrypted. I have no idea how that affects any consideration of blu-ray or HD-DVD playback.

- Andy

[nielm]

Originally Posted by mikesm

Why not have the same support for Blue-ray and HD-DVD? Implement all the required codecs, container processing and such, and then it'll be the same way as it is for DVD?

Read what Stanger said:
1) Because codecs and container processors that can be used by 3rd party apps and Vista's PVP do not exist yet for HD-DVD/BR.
2) Because Sage is currently written to use DirectShow, and DirectShow cannot be used to playback HD-DVD (because it is inherently insecure)

Each step in the process from reading off the disk to the physical connection to the display has to be secure and DRM-controlled so that there is no chance of unencrypted data 'escaping' from the Protected Media Path

The encryption issue is a canard. If that was such a big deal, Sage wouldn't support DVD playback from hard disk.

There is a world of difference between coping with the trivial CSS decryption requirements for playing a DVD, and coping with the enormous AACS DRM requirements for playing an HD-DVD.

If it was that easy to play a HD/BR DVD, then don't you think Vista's MCE would be able to do it? (hint: it cannot -- it has to minimise and run Power DVD)

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by mikesm

First off, I don't understand the logic here. Sage can't even play encrypted DVD's on it's own, yet it supports DVD playback from a DVD drive, as well as from hard disk. It's left to the user to deal with crypto.

Yes, usually in the form of buying a DVD "decoder pack" (eg the PureVideo DVD Decoder). There is no "Decoder Pack" for HD DVD or Blu-ray.

Why not have the same support for Blue-ray and HD-DVD? Implement all the required codecs, container processing and such, and then it'll be the same way as it is for DVD?

None of said codecs exist, specifically the ones for container processing, also audio codecs are problematic. The only DShow DD+ audio codec I'm aware of comes only with Sonic Scenarist ($$$$).

The encryption issue is a canard. If that was such a big deal, Sage wouldn't support DVD playback from hard disk.

No it's not, security was not a big concern when DVD was architected, at least not to the level it is now. The robustness requirements for CSS are apparently nothing compared to those for AACS.

AACS has far stricter robustness requirements requiring any part of the chain to ensure that the data can't be intercepted downstream, to do that it must only communicate with "approved" links. There's no way to do this in the DShow architecture.

Here's an example of why HD DVD and Blu-ray can't be done in DirectShow:

With DVDs (even CSS protected ones) many are quite fond of post processing with ffdshow. ffdshow is an open source, and inherently not a "trusted" link (ie you could write a filter that appears like ffdshow but dumps a copy of audio/video to disc instead of just processing it, in fact ffdshow can do that crudely with the grab funcion). There's no way to prevent something like that with DShow, and there's no way such an insecure infrastructure could be AACS certified to allow decoding of AACS protected content.

[mkanet]

I'm sure when Vista MCE does it, SageTV will be able to do it too.

[srothwell]

Ahhhh.....

But what if I create my OWN Blu-ray with Adobe Encore and save the Blu-ray files to a folder. Why would it be technically impossible for Sage to play that?

I know the menus, etc.... but technically it's just MPEG2-HL or AVC.

Stacy

[stanger89]

It's technically posible for DShow to play m2ts files, it's also technically possible for DShow to play evo files.

[bcjenkins]

Speaking of which.. I just found this: GeexBox

Which is listing support for VC1/WMV9/EVO

This is a front end for Freevo. Still looking for the codecs themselves.

B

[GbrNole]

i went the other direction and got a ps3 and just someday hope that sage or a third party can make some sort of integration or plugin for it?

[nielm]

Related to this, I remeber HD-DVD being promoted as having a managed-copy system -- you can legally rip your own HD-DVDs to your media center's hard disk.

Doing some searching, the latest references to this are from 2005! Anybody know if this is possible yet? (I am guessing not...)

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by nielm

Doing some searching, the latest references to this are from 2005! Anybody know if this is possible yet? (I am guessing not...)

It's not in the Interim AACS agreement that we're currently living under. It's supposed to be in the final/official AACS agreement that's coming "any day now"

[Ryokurin]

Originally Posted by mkanet

I'm sure when Vista MCE does it, SageTV will be able to do it too.

Then it wont directly, as MCE cant and likely never will. It minimizes and opens the other program as well. http://blog.mediacentersandbox.com/P...9670fe1ff.aspx

As others said, the stakes are too high for the small software developer to play that game, and hell it looks like even Microsoft is stepping away from that, or they don't want to pay the fees for the license. (why they never included a mpeg-2 decoder until vista) Even if Sage did step up to the plate they probably would have to completely close it down to outside tweaks as well, and that definitely wouldn't make a bunch of people here happy.

[mikesm]

Originally Posted by Ryokurin

Then it wont directly, as MCE cant and likely never will. It minimizes and opens the other program as well. http://blog.mediacentersandbox.com/P...9670fe1ff.aspx

As others said, the stakes are too high for the small software developer to play that game, and hell it looks like even Microsoft is stepping away from that, or they don't want to pay the fees for the license. (why they never included a mpeg-2 decoder until vista) Even if Sage did step up to the plate they probably would have to completely close it down to outside tweaks as well, and that definitely wouldn't make a bunch of people here happy.

This just isn't that hard. Linux with mplayer can play HD-DVD today, and they certainly don't have an AACS license. You do need to be able to understand the format of .evo files and have hardware and codecs capable of decoding h.264 and vc-1 without problems. It sounds like with foreign codecs we can get that in Sage today (though i think they should be shipping vc-1 and h.264 codecs with sage, just as they do mpeg-2). We just don't have the support for understanding evo files.

I am not asking for sage to get AACS certification. That isn't going to happen. But that isn't the same as playing unencrypted hd-dvd and blu-ray media. Both formats have pc compatible burners available, and software exists for making your own hidef movies. It's the same situation as with DVD's.

users need to add "code" to be able to back up media to their hard drives. We aren't asking sage to do this, just to play things back the same was as they do with DVD's.


What am I missing here?

thanks,
Mike

[moamoa]

Originally Posted by nielm

If it was that easy to play a HD/BR DVD, then don't you think Vista's MCE would be able to do it? (hint: it cannot -- it has to minimise and run Power DVD)

ok, so sage natively playing a HD disc does not look on the cards anytime soon, fair enough.

But why can't sage implement it the same way as MCE does and have some kind of plugin to allow it to be played via another external application?

At least then the user has the option of being able to play HD content, in a manner than appears pretty seamless to the user, irrespectively of what actually is going on under the hood.

Basically, anything that does not involve the user having to drop back to windows to manually start another application, people can live with.

I could certainty live with that.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by moamoa

ok, so sage natively playing a HD disc does not look on the cards anytime soon, fair enough.

But why can't sage implement it the same way as MCE does and have some kind of plugin to allow it to be played via another external application?

At least then the user has the option of being able to play HD content, in a manner than appears pretty seamless to the user, irrespectively of what actually is going on under the hood.

Basically, anything that does not involve the user having to drop back to windows to manually start another application, people can live with.

I could certainty live with that.

Oh, well that already exists. Check out dynamic menus from nielm.

B

[nielm]

Originally Posted by moamoa

But why can't sage implement it the same way as MCE does and have some kind of plugin to allow it to be played via another external application?

Add a dynamic menu item that minimises sage and runs Power Dvd with the appropriate options to start playback fullscreen from your HD/BR device...

At least then the user has the option of being able to play HD content, in a manner than appears pretty seamless to the user, irrespectively of what actually is going on under the hood.

from what I understand (I neither have PDVD, nor an HD/BR drive), MCE's option is not eactly seamless -- by minimising and running PDVD you still need some way to remote control PDVD)

[edit: bcjenkins: snap!]