New MVP Owner (w/ client license) frequent "crashes" ?

[AngelofDeth]

I like Vista, and use it on my desktop. But its "advantages" for use in a PVR is questionably at best. Especially when you are using software that doesn't properly support Vista.

[riekl]

The software "compatability" issues are seperate from the performance benefits. Vista's performance enhancements are derived largely from its pre-fetching techniques which are software independent.

[AngelofDeth]

If you've tried doing anything CPU bound in Vista, you would find that it actually is not faster. Trying doing something like compressing a file/folder, transcoding video, and its around 15-30% slower than XP doing the exact same thing.

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by riekl

Spoken like a true jump on the bandwagon without any evidence fanboy.

I don't think this sort of personal insult was warranted. Do you have a personal attachment to Vista or something?

Originally Posted by riekl

Vista is superior to XP in many, many ways. INCLUDING as a PVR. It uses prefetch techniques that properly utilize your ram instead of allowing it to sit idle.

Vista is superior to XP in a FEW ways, not many. In general it isn't faster and couldn't be, but there are advantages with prefetch like you say. However, if you have any sense your PVR does little but run your PVR programs and you have enough RAM to take care of those. In this case prefetch is of little benefit. Startup times will be quicker, but that's not a big deal with a PVR. File versioning on the Pro versions might be useful. I'm struggling for benefits after that. I have used Vista and couldn't see anything that would make me want to move my PVR.

Originally Posted by riekl

not to mention the hundreads of UI enhancements make day to day use so much better.

I'm not really sold on the UI, no doubt sustained use would make me appreciate it more, but I'm not convinced it's that much better. Plus once again, UI/eye candy isn't that big a deal on your PVR is it?

Originally Posted by riekl

When XP came out they called IT bloatware to, said the same thing about 95, it happens with every new OS people love to hate the new things.

Having been working in the PC/IT industry since well before Win95 came out, neither of these statements is true. WinMe was roundly condemned, 95 was welcomed and every IT professional I know saw XP as a big step forward. There are always luddites but no-one I know avoided XP.

I still don't see any good reason for running a Vista PVR currently, but I understand the desire to be bleeding-edge...

[bcjenkins]

The desire for bleeding edge can be a painful thing! A few points from me on Vista and the prior comments:

1) I think IT groups had disdain for XP when it came it. It's fancy ui and sugar coated kids computingness Back in my day, we used Win 2K and we were proud of it!

2) I recently formatted and installed Vista Ultimate on a machine to see if anything could help my HD stuttering. So far so good, performance is improved. However, this is likely less to do with Vista and more to do with a change in decoder from NVidia to Cyberlink's Vista approved decoder. There are other issues though I am working through.

3) Aero sure is purdy to look at on my plasma display!

Lastly, like it or not, walk in to a BB or a CC and try to buy a PC WITHOUT Vista. As more PC users of PVRs come to find out about SageTV, they'll likely be asking questions with Vista in the mix. So to suggest someone put XP on a box to run this software is a little short sighted.

My 2

B

[stevieray7]

Originally Posted by rickgillyon

Such as? I'm struggling to think of a single advantage for Vista over XP for a PVR...

Why Vista for a PVR system? Only because it's my OS of choice. I could care less about PVR improvements or speed advantages resulting from Vista. That's not my objective. I would be perfectly content to let Sage do that for me.

I demand Vista as an everyday user. On daily basis, I deal with computer graphics, tons of multimedia, and am a gamer who is always current. I have been working with computers since TI-994A's & Commodore64's etc. and tend to have the best hardware available and want to maximize my performance.

To put the VISTA validation argument to bed once and for all.

These are the many technical advantages over any OS out there to date:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technic..._Windows_Vista

This is the standard feature set that the average joe would care about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature..._windows_vista

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

Lastly, like it or not, walk in to a BB or a CC and try to buy a PC WITHOUT Vista. As more PC users of PVRs come to find out about SageTV, they'll likely be asking questions with Vista in the mix. So to suggest someone put XP on a box to run this software is a little short sighted.

Agreed, most new PCs have Vista, so Sage will need to support it soon enough. But I don't believe there's any argument to upgrade a PVR to Vista.

Originally Posted by stevieray7

I demand Vista as an everyday user. On daily basis, I deal with computer graphics, tons of multimedia, and am a gamer who is always current.

Wow, you do all that on your PVR? I wouldn't.

Originally Posted by stevieray7

To put the VISTA validation argument to bed once and for all.

You may think that puts it to bed once and for all, I certainly wouldn't agree. If I bought a new main desktop, chances are I would go for Vista. But would I put it on my PVR when it's not even supported yet? Not a hope, because in that great big list of advantages that MS has put on Wikipedia, which would improve my PVR?

Would I spend the money to put it on my existing main desktop? Nah, certainly not yet, although sooner or later it will probably happen.

[stevieray7]

No argument there, Vista is not PVR-ready with Sage. For everything else Vista is a faster, smarter, and a more functional OS.

I wish I had the luxury of having a dedicated PVR server. I'm seriously considering building one with my spare parts for my family room so I can get full use of my PVR setup with all my 500+ channels (not just extended basic). Right now I'm just set up in my upstairs office for use in my master bedroom. My house is new and comes pre-wired with CAT5 in every room.

As it stands, any "new" PVR server I would build will definetly run XP with nothing else but Sage on it. For now... when I want PVR features I will have to dual boot into XP on the upstairs desktop which also has Vista on it.

[AngelofDeth]

Originally Posted by stevieray7

No argument there, Vista is not PVR-ready with Sage. For everything else Vista is a faster, smarter, and a more functional OS.

After using Vista pretty much exclusively, I would have to say you are wrong on all three counts. The interface is certainly nice, but there is nothing you can't do in XP, that can be done in Vista. Pretty much every type of application is slower in Vista. I've seen the benchmarks and used it enough to know anyone that says Vista is faster probably hasn't actually run any numbers.

Also, try getting good TV output on an nVidia card in Vista. I couldn't do it. Fast scrolling text is a disaster, not to mention the card shows the TV running in 29 Hz, which im sure isn't helping... Not that I use a PC for TV output, just another example of why someone shouldn't be using Vista for PVR, at least if you have an nVidia card. Or maybe it was just me.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

Also, try getting good TV output on an nVidia card in Vista. I couldn't do it. Fast scrolling text is a disaster, not to mention the card shows the TV running in 29 Hz, which im sure isn't helping... Not that I use a PC for TV output, just another example of why someone shouldn't be using Vista for PVR, at least if you have an nVidia card. Or maybe it was just me.

My TV output works well.. Just one of my inputs is off. OOC - Have you tried a Vista compat decoder?

[AngelofDeth]

Are you using nVidia hardware? It wasn't really a big deal to me, I don't use PC clients for tv output, only an occasional divx or dvd outside of Sage, so I haven't done a lot of testing yet. I'm not sure what codec I was using, what is recommended for a Vista compatible mpeg2 codec? Does Pure Video work?

[rickgillyon]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

Pretty much every type of application is slower in Vista.

If you have plenty of RAM, boot times seem to be faster. I didn't benchmark, but on a standard system with the dreaded MacAfee installed, was up and ready faster than I'd expect and improved after a few boots.

[bcjenkins]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

Are you using nVidia hardware? It wasn't really a big deal to me, I don't use PC clients for tv output, only an occasional divx or dvd outside of Sage, so I haven't done a lot of testing yet. I'm not sure what codec I was using, what is recommended for a Vista compatible mpeg2 codec? Does Pure Video work?

purevideo is not. Cyberlink is the only one shipping of the big names that I know. intervideo says come back soon. I am running 2 nights now on the new setup. HD looks brilliant and not stutter or jitter. Using nvidia 6600 and powerdvd says purevideo in the setup.

B

[AngelofDeth]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

purevideo is not. Cyberlink is the only one shipping of the big names that I know. intervideo says come back soon. I am running 2 nights now on the new setup. HD looks brilliant and not stutter or jitter. Using nvidia 6600 and powerdvd says purevideo in the setup.

B

Well, I am playing back SD, to an SD TV. Considering (I believe) the TV output was broken just a few drivers revisions ago in Vista, its probably a driver issue with svideo output. Playing back Sage recordings in Power DVD in XP vs Vista is completly different. It looks very good in XP, in Vista not so good. Scrolling text is the most obvious problem, even a slow "crawler" looks off. The nVidia control panel also lists either 29, or 30 Hz as the available refresh rate for the TV...

[stevieray7]

Originally Posted by AngelofDeth

After using Vista pretty much exclusively, I would have to say you are wrong on all three counts. The interface is certainly nice, but there is nothing you can't do in XP, that can be done in Vista. Pretty much every type of application is slower in Vista. I've seen the benchmarks and used it enough to know anyone that says Vista is faster probably hasn't actually run any numbers.

Also, try getting good TV output on an nVidia card in Vista. I couldn't do it. Fast scrolling text is a disaster, not to mention the card shows the TV running in 29 Hz, which im sure isn't helping... Not that I use a PC for TV output, just another example of why someone shouldn't be using Vista for PVR, at least if you have an nVidia card. Or maybe it was just me.

Not knowing what your hardware config is, how you maintain your system, or what benchmarks you are citing - I can honestly say that my experience differs greatly after using Vista Business at work and Vista Ultimate at home exclusively for two months now. I use a lot of power apps religiously. To name a few... Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop/GoLive CS3, Acrobat Pro 7, Flash MX, Corel Graphics Suite X3, Autocad 2006, Sonic Vegas Video, Pinnacle Studio, and all of MS Office 2007 intensively...ALL of these applications are noticeably faster running on Vista compared to XP (I've ran them all using the same hardware in XP for several years, albiet the older versions too). I also jump around at work using some of these apps on systems running XP with identical hardware and notice the speed difference every time.

I will admit though, Vista does take about a week or more to speed things up. It indexes quite a bit at first. Also, I use the ready-boost function, disable UAC, all of the unneeded services, optimize my pagefile, keep a clean registry, and use O&O auto defrag. Another consideration is that I use the new sleep function exclusively, meaning I've cold booted my machines only a handful of times.

[stevieray7]

Bears mentioning that just the new windows explorer interface and quick search functions in Vista is enough to blow away XP.

I already rely on many of those features constantly.
But I digress, Vista and Sage are not playing nice on my media extender...running SageTV 6 on Vista itself it is peachy keen.

[riekl]

Heh .. 6.1 now lists Vista support .. yet this isn't fixed .. i even contacted support and sent in logs .. *boggle*

[coryking]

My MVP also will randomly reboot. Even thought the video will continue to play, the UI will lock up and stop responding. Eventually the box will reboot itself unless I reboot it from the remote first.

I'm running Vista, latest of the 1.6 java's with the latest SageTV. My gut tells me that the MVP does this only when I put a "load" on the UI, like it gets somehow out of sync with the Vista box. I'm still not sure why it continues to play the video - how much of it is cached on the MVP?

I'm working on getting some debug logs off the the SageTV crew.

Oh, and to add fuel to the flamefest:

1) I have a buddy who works at Microsoft and gets an employee discount
2) Windows Media Player & Shared Media
3) Remote Desktop is better
4) As the driver support matures, it should run SageTV faster than on XP.

[riekl]

Despite all the claims otherwise .. i have found that Sage is not reliable on Vista, it just isn't ready.