Closed Caption for HD recordings - what capture device

[graywolf]

Trying to recall the answer but my 2-bit memory (size & cost) I can't remember.

For HD Recordings (would be from DirecTV), is there a HD device (card or box) that works with SageTV that captures the CC also?

If not, what do others do that sometimes needs the CC to follow clearly?

If not with DirecTV, are there other options/setups (other than OTA) that would work with SageTV and get CC capability?

[Tiki]

I think the only way to record from DirectTV is to use their box (with an IRBlaster, or serial, or Ethernet or something to change the channels), and then use something like an HDPVR or Colossus to grab the output from HDMI or component. Anything like this can only capture what the box puts out. So if CC is not turned on, you won’t capture it. If CC is turned on in the STB, you will get the captions in the recording, but you won’t be able to turn them off.

The only way to capture the CC data in a way that lets you toggle them on and off later on during playback is to capture the stream as it is broadcast (OTA, QAM, or cable card), using something like the HDHR that doesn’t require a STB. I don’t think there is any way to do it with satellite.

[graywolf]

ok. So unlike SD with the HVR-1600 where you can toggle CC on and off, you won't be able to do so with HD unless you "burn it into" the video?
<sigh>

But you could toggle CC with HDHR with cable?
But then you are at the mercy of the cable company and the copy flag they set, correct?

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by graywolf

ok. So unlike SD with the HVR-1600 where you can toggle CC on and off, you won't be able to do so with HD unless you "burn it into" the video?
<sigh>

But you could toggle CC with HDHR with cable?
But then you are at the mercy of the cable company and the copy flag they set, correct?

You are mostly correct, but it’s not an SD vs HD thing (the hvr1600 you mentioned is actually capable of recording HD). The issue really boils down to whether the capture device you are using is directly tuning the channels, or whether it relies on a separate box to do the tuning.

Capture devices like the HVR1600 have the tuner built-in. They have access to the raw signal being broadcast to your antenna or sent by your cable company. Therefore they can get everything (including CC and alternate audio streams). They can save it all and let the player decide which streams to present later. One other gotcha is that not every player knows how to decode and display CC even if it is saved with the recording. Sage can toggle them on and off as long as you have it setup correctly with the right video codecs.

But, when you have a separate box from your cable or satellite provider, the box decides what content to show and just outputs a single audio stream and single video stream to your TV. Devices like the HDPVR just intercept this and records what the box was trying to display on your TV. This means you will also capture any overlays that your cable box displays (like the channel number, show description, or other messages that the box may pop up on the screen) and you can’t hide these or turn them off since they will be burned in to the recording.

The HDHR and Prime work very much like your Hvr1600. They actually tune the channel without a separate STB and capture everything. The HDHR can capture OTA or clear QAM cable, but there are very few places left where clear qam cable is still available. The HDHR PRIME works with cable card or clear QAM. Cable card is available from all US cable providers, but as you said it depends on how they set the copy flags.

Comcast is very good - you can record everything except the premium channels (like HBO) and on demand / pay per view.

Time Warner is terrible - you can only record the local channels.

[graywolf]

OK. Spectrum (Time Warner) in my area so that doesn't sound promising.

I was following your explanation except I'm confused regarding the HVR-1600 & STB.

That is our current setup (SD DirecTV receiver) with USB-UIRT to tune the channel on the DirecTV STB. That feeds into the HVR-1600 (S-Video/Audio).
We are able to turn CC on/off (CC1) on shows.

Video Renderer = EVR
MPEG2 Video Decoder = SageTV MPEG Video
Uses DXVA = No
H.264 Video Decoder = Default
VC-1 Video Decoder = Default
Audio Renderer = Default
MPEG2 Audio Decoder = SageTV MPEG Audio

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by graywolf

OK. Spectrum (Time Warner) in my area so that doesn't sound promising.

I was following your explanation except I'm confused regarding the HVR-1600 & STB.

That is our current setup (SD DirecTV receiver) with USB-UIRT to tune the channel on the DirecTV STB. That feeds into the HVR-1600 (S-Video/Audio).
We are able to turn CC on/off (CC1) on shows.

Video Renderer = EVR
MPEG2 Video Decoder = SageTV MPEG Video
Uses DXVA = No
H.264 Video Decoder = Default
VC-1 Video Decoder = Default
Audio Renderer = Default
MPEG2 Audio Decoder = SageTV MPEG Audio

That’s very strange and surprising. If you are capturing via s-video, I don’t see how you can get the captions and be able to toggle them on and off during playback.

[wnjj]

Originally Posted by Tiki

That’s very strange and surprising. If you are capturing via s-video, I don’t see how you can get the captions and be able to toggle them on and off during playback.

From what I read online, CC was supported back on NTSC analog using a sideband (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608). S-video can carry that info which is then decoded at the HVR for storing in the file.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by wnjj

From what I read online, CC was supported back on NTSC analog using a sideband (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIA-608). S-video can carry that info which is then decoded at the HVR for storing in the file.

Interesting!

So it sounds like there is really no reason that the STB couldn’t send the embedded captions out through the HDMI port or component video port. In that case there is really no reason that an HDPVR or similar device couldn’t grab the CC information and embed it in the video file it creates. It should just be a matter of how their software is written (unless it is a limitation of the hardware encoding chip they use).

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I don’t ever use closed captions myself, but I’ve seen lots of posts here from others that it didn’t work. Perhaps the real problem is that the HDPVR and similar devices mostly use h.264 encoding and I’m not sure if there are any decoders that support CC with h.264.

[KryptoNyte]

If a person is using a USB-UIRT(s), then maybe the most feasible method is to add an option to the context menu that pops up during playback (not the original Closed Captions option, but a new one with custom name), and then that option could launch a simple batch file that has the USB-UIRT flip on CC on the STB.

If there was more than one recording device (tuner) then I suppose that would get a bit more complicated.

... and of course this would only work for live TV, which probably isn't what you were wanting.

[jpwegas]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Interesting!
So it sounds like there is really no reason that the STB couldn’t send the embedded captions out through the HDMI port or component video port.

The NTSC standard included CC data within the broadcast signal and tuners were able to include that information in the S-Video or composite signal which could be captured by SD recording devices. So the CC data could be enabled or disabled at playback time.

However, the HDMI standard never defined a way to include the CC "stream" as part of what it sends over the HDMI cable, so a recorder has no way to save this information from a device that outputs HDMI (like an STB).

This is why for HDMI, the only "option" is to enable it at the device receiving the signal and "burning" it into the video signal sent out via HDMI. For Sage users, this means it's "always on", which isn't ideal.

It seems like a huge failure that the HDMI standard doesn't support a way to send this information.

--John

[jpwegas]

To give some examples from my own setup:

Old VCR or DVD player (using S-Video) to PVR-500: CC available at playback
HDHR Prime (CableCard) to Sage directly (using prime_encoder or OpenDCT): CC available at playback
HDHR Quatro or other OTA tuners: CC available at playback
Anything to HDPVR: CC not available

Note: For HDHR Prime (CableCard), only channels that are marked copy freely can be captured directly.

[graywolf]

Does the HD PVR (1212) or either of the Colossus models (2 or the original) capture the Closed Caption (CC1) stream with either the composite or component cables so that in Sage you could turn on/off the Closed Captions on playback?

Or any other devices (other than her-1600)

[SHS]

Originally Posted by graywolf

Does the HD PVR (1212) or either of the Colossus models (2 or the original) capture the Closed Caption (CC1) stream with either the composite or component cables so that in Sage you could turn on/off the Closed Captions on playback?

Or any other devices (other than her-1600)

Non of Hauppauge HD-PVR ever supported Line 21 Data Stream by decoding or encoding in to file not even by S-Video, Composite or Component as lack the VBI pin with in the drivers in order for it to work and chipset them self didn't support it.
If you want this you need get HVR-1955 (HWE), USB-Live2 (SWE), ImpactVCB (SWE) which is still available for purchase or hunt down legacy products like the HVR 1600 on up

HWE = Hardware Encoder
SWE = Software Encoder