Tuner Recommendations?

[TheraEdge]

I finally built a new sage machine and am starting to venture from SD territory to digital QAM and maybe starting to think about something HD too, but I'll not get to far ahead of myself. The SDs worked so well for so long, I just got lazy and didn't push it to get into the digital or HD realm, but I'm trying to dig into that now.

I am still working on setting up my first QAM tuner (program guide needs a lot of manual help), but have also run into the issue of moving to a PC that only has 2 PCI slots, so I'm not bringing over all the old tuners. So depending on how my QAM prospects play out with my cable company's offerings, I was kind of interested in maybe getting a new PCIe multiple QAM tuner. I was kind of browsing hauppauge so far, as those typically have worked well for me in the past.

I am also kind of interested in the HDHR Prime too, but I'm a little overwhelmed by getting everything together to make that work. Not clear to me if I have enough know how to pull off setting one of those up.

So, just for some background, I was running WinXP on an older machine up to this point, but it is having more and more issues (hardware mainly). I just built up a Win7 (64-bit) machine that has PCIe slots as well as 2 PCI slots. I am currently running a Hauppauge HVR-1600 and a PVR-500. I had to limit the system to less than 4GB of ram to make the PVR-500 work, but I only had 4GB in the system anyway. I'm running SageTV v7. I was considering going to Win10 and doing SageTV v9, but it was not clear if Win10 would support current hardware and I haven't looked into Sage9 yet to see if I really want it, so figure I can always look at upgrading in the future. I also us an HD200 extender for playback in our living-room.

So far with the QAM tuner on the 1600, I have enjoyed the higher quality on the shows it has recorded. Still have to figure out why it doesn't prefer that tuner. My wife got an SD recording of DWTS 1st run, and my kids got an HD recording of Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. :P

Oh, I should mention my cable setup. I'm on a pretty good coop, that provides SD, QAM, and CableCards are available as well. I will have to check with them more to see how much of the cable card offerings are unprotected if I decide to go down the HDHR Prime route.

Thanks in advance for all suggestions.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by TheraEdge

I finally built a new sage machine and am starting to venture from SD territory to digital QAM and maybe starting to think about something HD too, but I'll not get to far ahead of myself. The SDs worked so well for so long, I just got lazy and didn't push it to get into the digital or HD realm, but I'm trying to dig into that now.

I am still working on setting up my first QAM tuner (program guide needs a lot of manual help), but have also run into the issue of moving to a PC that only has 2 PCI slots, so I'm not bringing over all the old tuners. So depending on how my QAM prospects play out with my cable company's offerings, I was kind of interested in maybe getting a new PCIe multiple QAM tuner. I was kind of browsing hauppauge so far, as those typically have worked well for me in the past.

I am also kind of interested in the HDHR Prime too, but I'm a little overwhelmed by getting everything together to make that work. Not clear to me if I have enough know how to pull off setting one of those up.

So, just for some background, I was running WinXP on an older machine up to this point, but it is having more and more issues (hardware mainly). I just built up a Win7 (64-bit) machine that has PCIe slots as well as 2 PCI slots. I am currently running a Hauppauge HVR-1600 and a PVR-500. I had to limit the system to less than 4GB of ram to make the PVR-500 work, but I only had 4GB in the system anyway. I'm running SageTV v7. I was considering going to Win10 and doing SageTV v9, but it was not clear if Win10 would support current hardware and I haven't looked into Sage9 yet to see if I really want it, so figure I can always look at upgrading in the future. I also us an HD200 extender for playback in our living-room.

So far with the QAM tuner on the 1600, I have enjoyed the higher quality on the shows it has recorded. Still have to figure out why it doesn't prefer that tuner. My wife got an SD recording of DWTS 1st run, and my kids got an HD recording of Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. :P

Oh, I should mention my cable setup. I'm on a pretty good coop, that provides SD, QAM, and CableCards are available as well. I will have to check with them more to see how much of the cable card offerings are unprotected if I decide to go down the HDHR Prime route.

Thanks in advance for all suggestions.

In many ways, ClearQAM is often the hardest to configure, because the guide data is all mapped manually (to get channel 178, it may have to tell the tuner to tune to 63-5, and you have to make that connection yourself). CableCard, in that respect, is a bit easier. If the EPG data says a channel is on 178, then in Sage, it will tune to 178. It then is just an issue of going through and either enabling or disabling which channels are actually unprotected or not. The only harder part in configuring CableCard (HDHR-Prime) is that it is not natively supported in sage, so you have to configure a separate piece of software for it (PrimeNetEncoder). The newest version has certainly made strides in making that process easier, and you shouldn't have problems on a regular windows install following the instructions to make that happen.

[TheraEdge]

So sounds like I have a recommendation for the HDHR Prime, and to skip the QAM and other tuners.

Is the PrimeNetEncoder the best way to go then? I had seen something about a SageDCT that I don't know anything about either.

[KryptoNyte]

Originally Posted by TheraEdge

Oh, I should mention my cable setup. I'm on a pretty good coop, that provides SD, QAM, and CableCards are available as well. I will have to check with them more to see how much of the cable card offerings are unprotected if I decide to go down the HDHR Prime route ...

Before making any decisions you would need to know more about this. For example, with Time Warner, a cablecard setup with SageTV will only get you the local affiliate channels, and you would require additional tuners and set-top-boxes to get anything else.

[Monedeath]

With the exception of the CableCard tuners, if it can tune clear-QAM then it is able to do ATSC (OTA HDTV), so the OTA tuner recommends are relevant.

Chances are very good you will find the only clear-QAM content from the Cable Company will be your local stations, and as mentioned setting up your channel lineup will likely be a painful adventure as you get manually remap almost every channel you can tune, which may also become a recurring event for you.

If you can get locals OTA, that is going to be much easier to setup(little to no remapping needed) otherwise going CableCard is probably your best bet, once you are up and running it should be fairly low upkeep, unless you have certain providers as mentioned above.

[TheraEdge]

I'm still working on it, but it looks like most the local affiliates mapped to the QAM tuner, but you are right, there are many other detected channels that aren't setup, so I'm working through them with my guide a few at a time. Looks like there are something like 70 total digital channels though, but some of those are just 480i too.

I'll make sure to check into the clear cable card channels before I go that route to see how worth it, it would be.

I don't know that I really want to do the over the air stuff since it seems all my local channels are provided in digital on the cable.

Thanks for the recommendations. If I do want to add some more QAM tuners or replace my SD tuners does anyone have any recommendations or experience? Seems like everyone here are HD masters!

[KryptoNyte]

If all your HD (or most of it) is clear QAM, which seems hard to believe if they offer cablecard, then you would probably want one of the dual tuner OTA/clearQAM HRHomerun units.

Just to clarify, the cablecard decrypts the incoming stream, but there is a second level of protection referred to as the CCI flag. For any given station, if the CCI flag is set to anything other than "copy-freely," then SageTV would require a more rudimentary tuner for those stations (the HD-PVR recording from a set-top-box for example).

Most reports here indicate that Time Warner sets all CCI flags to "copy-once" (bad for cablecard Sage users) for anything but the local affiliates. Comcast and Charter customers seem to have most everything set to "copy-freely," except for the premium channels like HBO and such. We have since learned that FIOS has also set the higher level FOX channels to copy-once. If your service is something other than this, then the only option to test it would be to purchase a Prime and rent the cablecard to actually test and see what channels are marked as "copy-freely."

[KryptoNyte]

As a sidenote, most cable companies have been in a transition period over the last year or two (and for smaller communities, still happening), where they are converting to all digital, which means no more clear QAM, and all users will require a cablecard. Then comes the question of the copy flag.

[rochurch]

Yep, QAM is going away in most places. I have been bitten by the copy once bug from Time Warner cable card. I'm moving soon and I will install an OTA antenna and just skip cable. With Play Later / Play On and a Roku box to supplement SageTV we have gone all summer and into the fall without cable.

If Time Warner did not set the copy once flag I would probably still be a cable customer. I don't know if that will change when Charter buys them. I guess the only way to tell is to try it after the merger is complete.

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

As a sidenote, most cable companies have been in a transition period over the last year or two (and for smaller communities, still happening), where they are converting to all digital, which means no more clear QAM, and all users will require a cablecard. Then comes the question of the copy flag.

I guess I technically qualify as a "smaller community" and have Cable One as the provider. Going all digital took the Clear-QAM offerings down to just the local broadcasters, and QVC + CSPAN as I recall(switched to OTA in place of QAM about a year ago, not going to bother to recheck at this point). Cablecard works fine, copy freely set on nearly everything but the premiums.

[KryptoNyte]

Originally Posted by Monedeath

I guess I technically qualify as a "smaller community" ... Cablecard works fine, copy freely set on nearly everything but the premiums...

That is really the optimal situation for a Sage user today (except for that one guy around here that records HBO, and HBO only). I wish we could all be that fortunate!

[TheraEdge]

Hmm, bummer, just got the following reply from my cable company.

"Only the local channels are not copy protected. These channels are 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 12, 15, 402, 403, 406, 407, 408, 409, 412, and 415."

So, I will probably forego that for now and pick up another QAM tuner for the time being. Anyone had any experience with the Hauppauge HVR-2255? I'm considering getting one or more of those maybe.

Is anyone using the HDHR DVR progress builds right now? That sounded like it has some good features and will be about the only option that will support copy protected recording if it ever gets done.

[KryptoNyte]

I'd always recommend the HDHR non-cablecard tuners for clearQAM (assuming that's what you mean by not copy protected).

Of course there's always the channel mapping (and remapping) fiasco that you have to deal with every 6 to 18 months.

If by copy-protected, you mean flagged as "copy-once," then you could still use cablecard for your local channels and an HD-PVR (1212 for example, with set top box) for all the rest.

[TheraEdge]

So what is the bonus to having the HDHomerun (Extend I assume) over something like the HVR-2255? The HVR is internal, so I don't have to find another spot for it, and they both record up to 1080i over antenna or clearQAM. The HVR is also about $40 less expensive.

I do see that it looks like the HDHR Extend has an H.264 encoder, which would be nice to save a little space on the recordings.

My comment about the not copy protected was when I asked my cable company what cable card channels were not copy protected. The response was just the local ones I listed. For clear QAM, I get over 70 channels, which I mostly have setup. Keep finding one that is not remapped to the guide channel correctly.

Don't know that I am quite ready to do the HD PVR with set top box yet. I've just been using the SD quality so long, the digital broadcasts are a nice improvement for me.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by KryptoNyte

Of course there's always the channel mapping (and remapping) fiasco that you have to deal with every 6 to 18 months.

Depends on your provider. I have Comcast and during the time that I was able to use QAM (a few years), I never had to remap channels. Of course, they only ever offered a handful of channels in the clear by me (locals plus some of the basic cable channels only). And now of course you can't get any channels with clear QAM.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by TheraEdge

So what is the bonus to having the HDHomerun (Extend I assume) over something like the HVR-2255? The HVR is internal, so I don't have to find another spot for it, and they both record up to 1080i over antenna or clearQAM. The HVR is also about $40 less expensive.

The HDHomeruns are external, so for some people they are easier to deal with

1. Don't have to have them in the same room as your PC, so don't have to make sure your PC is close to a cable jack.
2. Don't have to open your PC and deal with adding a card.
3. Don't need a spare PCIe slot in your PC.

Also, Hauppauge's drivers have always been a little buggy. Not everyone has problems, but Silicon Dust seems to offer better support when people do have problems.

[UgaData]

I believe an HDHR Prime will still do QAM tuning without a cable card.
(others should be able to verify, I don't have an HDHR Prime and I got rather annoyed with the QAM tuning in my area)

So if you wanted to try/test cable card you could and if it doesn't work out you can still do the QAM tuning. Either way, the HDHR prime gives you 3 tuners as well.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by UgaData

I believe an HDHR Prime will still do QAM tuning without a cable card.
(others should be able to verify, I don't have an HDHR Prime and I got rather annoyed with the QAM tuning in my area)

So if you wanted to try/test cable card you could and if it doesn't work out you can still do the QAM tuning. Either way, the HDHR prime gives you 3 tuners as well.

Correct. The HDHR Prime will do QAM but it does NOT do ATSC tuning unlike the other HDHR tuners.

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Depends on your provider. I have Comcast and during the time that I was able to use QAM (a few years), I never had to remap channels. Of course, they only ever offered a handful of channels in the clear by me (locals plus some of the basic cable channels only). And now of course you can't get any channels with clear QAM.

Cable One was stable for years in my area for QAM until they they transitioned to full digital. After several months of shifting channel mappings for some channels several times a month, we gave up on QAM and went OTA for locals instead. I recall seeing one network ping-ping back and forth between physical channels almost as though they were saying "We may be required to provide this to you, but that doesn't mean we have to make it easy for you if you aren't using our equipment." (Which automatically tracked the changes)

[TheraEdge]

Originally Posted by Tiki

The HDHomeruns are external, so for some people they are easier to deal with

1. Don't have to have them in the same room as your PC, so don't have to make sure your PC is close to a cable jack.
2. Don't have to open your PC and deal with adding a card.
3. Don't need a spare PCIe slot in your PC.

Also, Hauppauge's drivers have always been a little buggy. Not everyone has problems, but Silicon Dust seems to offer better support when people do have problems.

Hmm, those are all good advantages for certain situations. Definitely things to consider.

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Correct. The HDHR Prime will do QAM but it does NOT do ATSC tuning unlike the other HDHR tuners.

I tried to look that up in the instructions and manuals for the prime, but I couldn't find anything that said it would handle clear QAM or could be used without a cable card. You guys are sure about that? Someone is actually using one in that way right now? The flyer says the Prime "Receives digital cable subscription TV," but I assumed that was referring just to CableCard stuff, because the other HDHRs in the table don't have that one highlighted, and they can do clear QAM right? HDHR Prime Flyer

I did notice that the Extend says it can do HD streaming to tablets and phones with their app, vs. the Prime, which can only do SD, which seemed odd. Does the Prime convert to H.264 too? I didn't see that it said that like th Extend page did.