Need advice on how to upgrade my Sage

[LSHorwitz]

I am a long time and very satisfied Sage user with an 8 client setup based on SageTV version 4, two Hauppauge WinTV 350 PCI capture cards installed in a Dell server, and 8 Hauppauge MVP Media Players at the client locations. This system has been running for 8 years or more.

Now that my cable company is transitioning all subscriber to scrambled basic service, I have recently gone to over the air ATSC HDTV for local programming, and have an excellent source of clear QAM programming.


I would like to migrate my Sage to receive and record 2 channels of off the air ATSC HDTV, and distribute it to my 8 MVP clients, all of which are standard definition (old fashion) analog receivers.

Is there a Sage configuration which would allow me to record ATSC HDTV in a standard def format to allow my MVPs to continue to be used at the 8 client locations? If necessary I am totally prepared to build a new server with 2 new capture cards, disks, etc. But I am reluctant to replace my 8 Hauppauge MVP client extenders, particularly since I do now want nor need HD quality at any of these locations. Is it merely a matter of installing 2 recent vintage Hauppauge WinTV HDTV capture cards with HD tuners and then downsmapling to the older SD format using a more recent Sage TV software version than the current version 4 I am now running?

Thanks for your 'Sage' advice!

Larry

[mechling-burgh]

If your server can handle it the place shifter will transcode the HD recording so the MVP can play it. I know I use to watch HD recordings at one time on an MVP on the basement TV. The only problem I remember was a some hiccups when jumping forward or backwards sometimes. I also felt the picture quality was better than the analog recordings even thou it was being transcoded.

[LSHorwitz]

Thanks for the suggestion! Is it possible to buy / download Placeshifter ? Sounds like it is worth trying.

I would still need to also get a version of SageTV which supports the newer ATSC capture cards since I am assuming my version 4 from 7 or 8 years ago would not work with HDTV content or Windows versions beyond XP.

Wondering if any of this is possible?

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by LSHorwitz

Thanks for the suggestion! Is it possible to buy / download Placeshifter ? Sounds like it is worth trying.

I would still need to also get a version of SageTV which supports the newer ATSC capture cards since I am assuming my version 4 from 7 or 8 years ago would not work with HDTV content or Windows versions beyond XP.

Wondering if any of this is possible?

If you had a newer version of SageTV (not sure included with Version 4) you could just use the built in Transcoder to convert them to SDTV specs. In version 7 it will do it automatically if you setup a favorite. Jeff provided a way for version 5 and 6 users to upgrade to version 7 for free but I don't know if it works for version 4 or not. I believe the version 5 upgrade from version 4 was a free upgrade but I could easily be wrong as well. You could try upgrading to version 5 SageTV first and see if you get a time limit warning - or maybe someone else knows for sure. If you don't get any warnings then get the free upgrade to version 7 here. Make sure you backup your existing SageTV directory and find your licence keys as well just in case.

[LSHorwitz]

Thank you, Bob !

I would need to get an upgrade and quite possibly a new key to install and activate version 7. Not sure if that is even available given the change of policy / ownership. Ironic since I have purchased a ton of Sage software and extender licenses including well over a dozen server, client, and MVP extenders. Just wish there was a way to use a newer WinTV dual ATSC card and Sage TV7 with my large set of 8 MVP client boxes now that all my channels are over-the-air antenna QAM clear sources and Time Warner is shutting down all analog channels including basic local network content.

The transcoding of Favorites would be ideal for me. All my recordings are, in fact, Favorites. I just want to keep the captured ATSC content in a format which the extenders can handle, MPEG 2.

I appreciate your help!

Larry

[Dargason]

You do still have the option to purchase a v7 license 'used'. Keep an eye open in the Marketplace forum. I'm not sure if you need to buy any licenses for the MVPs... I can't remember how that worked.

I think the transcoding was done 'on demand'. That is, when your MVP tells the server it wants to play something, the server transcodes it while streaming. This means you might have trouble if you want to watch something on all 8 extenders at once.

An alternative would be to set up something that would watch your recording directories for HD recordings and automatically transcode them all. That would save space, and you don't have any HD extenders anyway.

[LSHorwitz]

Really glad to hear about the possibility of a "used" license and the possibility of MVP support. I may buy a capture card and try it out.

I was also recently intrigued by the new "Simple.TV DVR", an OTA HDTV DVR which can stream to cheap Roku boxes as well as mobile devices. With either unpaid or paid EPG, it could be the next step for me if Sage has run out of gas.

I am delighted to see Sage future growth potential with Google ownership, but really feel like the roll-out of new and supported products has taken a severe hit for those of us who bought into the original concept. So glad this forum with fantastic users is still alive!

Thanks again,
Larry

[mechling-burgh]

The license you bought for the MVP is a placeshiter license just like the HD100s were. Basically if you select to to watch a program that is not a mpg file sage will transcode it for the MVP on the fly. You should not have to change anything with sage server unless it is not powerful enough to handle the transcoding. The more more MVPs you run at once the more powerful the cpu will have to be. I would just try it once and see how well it works. Like I said I was watching 1080i recordings on the MVP and sage just transcoding it on the fly. I only ever ran one MVP at a time on a core two duo and didn't have any problems.

[LSHorwitz]

This is very encouraging. I doubt that my 10 year old Pentium box will have enough gas to transcode in real time for more than one MVP, and may not even handle one adequately, but I am prepared to migrate to a multicore server if that is what I need. I just want to gain some insight and experience with the newer HDTV board, format, performance, and transcoding speed. The MVPs did also have a firmware version which could be updated to stream mpeg4 as I recall, but they are marginally able to handle moderate bit rate mpeg2 as far as I can tell.

I had no idea the MVP license key has placeshifter privledges!

Thanks again !

[waynedunham]

It has been a long time since I used my MVP, way back before HD was prevalent.

I forget, is it a file type issue or the HD part itself that is the problem? The reason I ask is that for me at least many of the OTA stations have both an HD and SD version. Maybe you could just record the SD version of those stations and be able to play them back on your MVP without transcoding?

I do recall just before I retired my MVP in the bedroom that I tried transcoding HD recordings to view on the MVP and my machine at the time definitely didn't have enough horsepower to do it on the fly. I had to transcode and then watch them later. The ramping up of HD availability was what finally got me to retire the MVP and get a 2nd HD100.

The other option is there are still quite a few HD100's popping up for sale. Not the latest and greatest, but still a HUGE step up from the MVP's.
I had to buy one of those used ones for my living room when one of my HD100's finally died. It had been limping along for quite some time. Every time it lost power I would have to jump through hoops to get it to reboot. Finally nothing I tried would get it to boot up.

[LSHorwitz]

Thank you Wayne!

The MVPs I have were designed to play the comparatively simple mpeg2 format files created by their companion Hauppauge WinTV 250/350 series standard def capture cards. The newer high def cards capture in a much more compressed mpeg4 format which would only play on the older MVPs with file conversions taking place. I seriously doubt that my old Sage server version 4 software, circa 2005, can record, transcode, or otherwise support any HD cards, capture, or playback. My old server box is also very marginal.

Thus I am looking at a new server, new Sage 7 update, and new capture cards(s) along with 8 new extenders, even if I were to only want to capture SD, an option which I actually don't really have since many if not most SD channels are not on my cable any longer and are also not over the air. I am not opppsed to putting all new hardware up here but only find new HAUPPAUGE HD MVP extenders for sale and don't think these are supported by Sage 7. Used HD-100s are another, harder to find, option.

The approach is not my first choice given the uncertain world of Sage support and especially the EPG, the loss of which really makes the next investment of $1K+ a bit dicey.

I think the conversion of my 5 favorite network ATSC OTA channels into analog RF older format using some anslog converters is another approach, keeping my entire present Sage intact but making the OTA input look like it used to look. Each channel would cost about $80 to convert.

The newer OTA DVRs from Simple.TV, Boxee, Channel Master, etc. are also coming on strong as yet another solution, but still not even slightly as nice as Sage. Sigh..........

Larry

[waynedunham]

True, but those other systems like SimpleTv, etc are a VAST downgrade from SageTv. While those of us still using SageTV cry out for more extenders the true genius of SageTV is the software itself and to a larger extend the ability to have all the add ins that make it so much more flexible.

I just can't see myself going back to something like a TiVo, or <shudder> a cable company DVR. Granted, sometime in the next couple years that may happen, but it will NOT be pleasant.
Hmm, I am retired, maybe I should just move to KC?

[LSHorwitz]

I entirely agree. The Sage software is totally in a different and better league compared to these other products as is the "whole house" functionality and versatility. The only reason other options have been considered is the very nebulous situation created by the change of Sage ownership, which makes a wholesale replacement of my 8 client system with the HD Sage equivalent a big and potentially dead-ended investment given how essential the program guide is.

I do wish that Google would clarify their intentions beyond the Kansas pilot project for those of us who cannot kick our red slippers together and magically return to Kansas.....

[waynedunham]

Originally Posted by LSHorwitz

I entirely agree. The Sage software is totally in a different and better league compared to these other products as is the "whole house" functionality and versatility. The only reason other options have been considered is the very nebulous situation created by the change of Sage ownership, which makes a wholesale replacement of my 8 client system with the HD Sage equivalent a big and potentially dead-ended investment given how essential the program guide is.

I do wish that Google would clarify their intentions beyond the Kansas pilot project for those of us who cannot kick our red slippers together and magically return to Kansas.....

As of this point I don't see the EPG going away. Plus there are a couple options available if/when the SageTV "official" EPG goes away. There is a plugin available for SageTv V7 that works with the Schedules Direct EPG which you can get for $25 a year.
Then of course there is the old tried and true XMLTV, but that can take some work to set up and maintain. I had a program I was using that was more flexible than SageTV for finding listings, conflicts, etc. (DigiGuide) but you had to use XMLTV in the U.S. (a British program) after the costs of their U.S. EPG data became too expensive for the # of U.S. users and the built in EPG for the U.S. went away. A pain to set up, and every time the Cable Company massaged their EPG data you had to manually edit some of the files to get the correct EPG guide name to work with the program.

[BobPhoenix]

I can't go to a cable/satellite DVR unless they will allow 170TB of storage. With recording drives and my NAS setups I have close to that much space and a good portion of it used. I don't record and delete much. Most of what I record I want to keep to watch (hopefully) years later.

[waynedunham]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Most of what I record I want to keep to watch (hopefully) years later.

..... once the networks and government have successfully removed all ability to watch TV. They are well on their way already.
I will NOT watch Tv live and suffer through commercials. When/if it comes to that I don't know what I'll do. Watching live isn't even an option since the networks insist on bunching all the programs I watch into the same time slots. 6 tuners often isn't enough.

You are probably much smarter than I. I'm more of a "I've watched it, so delete it" person.

[LSHorwitz]

Originally Posted by waynedunham

As of this point I don't see the EPG going away. Plus there are a couple options available if/when the SageTV "official" EPG goes away. There is a plugin available for SageTv V7 that works with the Schedules Direct EPG which you can get for $25 a year.
Then of course there is the old tried and true XMLTV, but that can take some work to set up and maintain. I had a program I was using that was more flexible than SageTV for finding listings, conflicts, etc. (DigiGuide) but you had to use XMLTV in the U.S. (a British program) after the costs of their U.S. EPG data became too expensive for the # of U.S. users and the built in EPG for the U.S. went away. A pain to set up, and every time the Cable Company massaged their EPG data you had to manually edit some of the files to get the correct EPG guide name to work with the program.

I am now tending to re-consider using my existing Sage version 4.1 server and 8 MVP clients, given the cost of a complete upgrade for ATSC HD. My latest plan is to use set top clear OTA ATSC to analog converter boxes, such as were given away during the mandated OTA transition, thus keeping my entire original SD system intact. The only change would be that all incoming HD OTA channels would be selected / tuned using USB-UIRT controlled converter boxes, feeding my old Hauppauge capture cards on channel 3, the output channel of the STB.

Given my plan to keep version 4.1 Sage server, can I assume these same EPG options suggested above for Sage 7 would also exist for Sage v4.1?

[waynedunham]

I have no official knowledge that the EPG will stay indefinitely, but every time it has come up Narflex or some other SageTv person has said it isn't going away in the near future.
I would think that would apply to all versions of SageTV, but I think that would depend on the code itself and if there have been any changes to where it is pointing when it looks for the EPG data.

Again, I believe the xmltv option should work regardless of SageTV version. The Schedules Direct EPG plugin looks like it only works on SageTV V7.

[ThePaladinTech]

just a few thoughts:

The Media MVPs DO look better with an HD signal as it will at least display your video at DVD quality (which is better than SD)

The Media MVPs with SageTV v7 work fine with the standard ui (maybe a little sluggish in the menus) - and probably work similarly with the diamond UI?

You need placeshifter licenses, but you only need to buy enough licenses for your expected concurrent use (not for all your mvps.)

Also regarding EPG data Narflex in some post somewhere said something similar to this "Don't worry it's not going away anytime soon, and I will provide ample warning before it does"

You may not be aware of the fact that SageTV v8 exists, if only on google - fiber. but it exists. and I suspect that it uses the exact same guide data and this is why we don't need to worry about it going away.

Jeff

[LSHorwitz]

Thanks Wayne and Jeff. Your comments are both enlightening and reassuring.

I was aware that some encouraging words from Narflex had been posted regarding the EPG and most certainly would pay for an EPG if it were offered to ensure continuity.

I was not aware that the older vintage circa 2006 Media Extrnder MVPs would even work with Sage 7. I assumed that Sage 7 had switched to mpeg4 and I am pretty certain the MVPs were never designed to handle that codec or that additional decoding workload. My experiences on going from camcorder mpeg2 (HDV) to mpeg4 (h.264) made my Pentium class hardware grond to a near halt and made me migrate to a fast quadcore. I just assumed Sage 7 would totally overwhelm any 2006 vintage MVP box.

Also encouraged that I would not need 8 placeshifter licenses, having already purchased 8 for MVPs and several now unused client licenses. We have at most 2 concurrent users, but many clients near tv sets in bedrooms, kitchen, laundry, treadmill, living room, office area, etc. but only me and my wife, both retired.

Sure wish Google would roll out a supported service and components. Sage is too good to keep it in their labs.

Larry