Planning Ahead: What Can Go Wrong w/Sage?

[gplasky]

So the "not to update" suggestion I made was to minimize the "What can go wrong with Sage" issues that could (not that it would) break or impact the function of Sage. You ask

Are you never going to update your video driver, audio driver, etc. on those machines?

and my basic answer would be yes-never. If nothing is wrong and it functions perfectly with what you have loaded and the main purpose of that machine is SageTV and tv playback then yes I would not update. I already have a PC client in the basement that hasn't been updated for over 2 years. It just works. I have yet to run across a change of video card or audio card that broke Sage. And this would be over more than 2 dozen PCs and peripherals. Placeshifter is a little different and worked better with specific cards or laptops with particular video chipsets.

I know I will leave my Sage system at some point. That's a given. The product is dead and at this point I don't see that changing. It's not the end of the world. So the day my server or extenders or PC clients fail to function in a way that I can no longer record, watch my recordings, photos, dvd rips, videos will be the day I will look for what solution is currently available. But today is not that day and I'm not going to fret over all the what if's. It is what it is and there's no going back. Technolgy moves too fast to worry about it. Adapt is what I'll do. I see great progress being made to get a pseudo-Sage client running in Boxee which runs on the Boxee Box and the Boxee PC client. I am content to sit back and see what some of the Plugin Dev Wizards can bring about.

I think my comments have been pertinent to the thread and see no reason to create another. We could all sit here and list all types of possibilities and impossibilites. The Weather Channel can shut off its feed to Sage. Devs can go away so when Playon makes a major change and EvilPenguin is not around anymore to update it all of Playon within Sage will stop working. All of the websites that provide online content move to html5 and now the core Sage program can't render that. Java stops building Java 6 and moves to Java 7 and Sage no longer even starts up.

I can prepare for the future. I can't change the past. Worry is imagination misued. I'll decide what path to take when I reach that fork in the road. I'm just not there yet.

Gerry

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

Why not start your own thread called "How To Keep Sage An Appliance For As Long As Possible"?

From what I've gleaned so far, it sounds like that's already implicit:

• Learn to love plain-vanilla SageTV (i.e. no YouTube, no weather... just record/play TV programs and play ripped movies - which is all I use Sage for anyhow)
• Keep a SageTV installer and license key handy
• Keep a Java 6 install handy
• Have a license to build an XP machine
• Have a copy of the XP SP6 install handy
• Be prepared to build up a dedicated, virgin XP SP3 box to run Sage TV on if/when MS or some other install breaks your current box.

At least that's my current fallback plan.

Am I missing anything?

[OneOfMany]

Sounds good, although I'd probably use a Win7 license, since if needed in the future, there may be some issues with XP on newer hardware. Probably not, but if you dont have an XP license, Win7 oems are rasonable.

Also it is a good idea to keep a directory of your known working device drivers. Sometimes it's hard to remember which you used successfully in the past if a reinstall is required.

Grant

[Folkboat]

Couldn't we just CLONE our current Sage disk??
It might not be practical............in 10 years!!

How about building a second SageTV clone/duplicate system??

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

It was an HYPOTHETICAL example of something that concerns me that COULD break Sage, in keeping with the thread. According to some, it's already broke with YouTube. Given that YouTube, is, well, YouTube, anyone with more than a brain stem could have figured that would be a front-line trouble spot.

Read the post. It says, "for example". I know how/when/why Windows validates (often for very poor reasons). In the dozen or so years I've been building systems I've spent a lot of time on help lines doing some weird stuff to get it to validate. XP went through a huge issue a few years ago with forced validations. You're naive if you don't think it's POSSIBLE it can happen again.

Of course I treat my Sage Server like an appliance. I have a bare metal backup with a few essential utilities and such. I don't update a/v drivers or video card drivers or anything.

I ghost my sage server 2x per day to 2 different drives, and my wiz/properties files 6x per day so if I decide to try letting XP update I know if it FUBAR's it I can go back.

Again, in keeping with the thread, it was a statement of AN EXAMPLE, not an actuality. And again, it's the big parts Sage is now at the mercy of, such as a YouTube or whatever, that concern me the most. Or that Sage turns into some total kluge needing all these old drivers and such if one decides to do a re-install. But, low and behold, not every site keeps a driver repository of all drivers for their cards, tuners, etc. forever. I have some great K-World ATSC 110 cards that don't even have decent drivers available for them. It's not the card or the hardware or the PCI slot that's doing them in, for example.

It will happen. Sage will turn into more and more of a kluge. As I said in another post, you will know when the scales have tipped because more and more Sagers will be dumping their hardware and software on Ebay, rather than a few getting 2x-3x what an HD300 cost prior to the sale.

Don't you think that backup process is a little extreme. A copy of of the sagetv directory is all you need to recover, even if you have to reload Windows. Besides, this is only tv, not life or death. If and when sage dies, have to find a new hobby. I 'be spent thousands in hardware and software playing with sagetv. it has been a wonderful learning experience. its like running your own IT department at home. You wife (CIO) breathing down your neck cause the system crashed and she wants it up for a show. It was fun, and I will use sagetv until the basic pvr functions no longer functions. I use clients pc, boxee can pickup some of the sagetv duties and it has an Android app for remote control. I still believe pc clients are the way to go due to flexibility, extender have proven there limitations again. Step out of the sagetv box.

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by SteveD

Don't you think that backup process is a little extreme. A copy of of the sagetv directory is all you need to recover, even if you have to reload Windows. Besides, this is only tv, not life or death. If and when sage dies, have to find a new hobby. I 'be spent thousands in hardware and software playing with sagetv. it has been a wonderful learning experience. its like running your own IT department at home. You wife (CIO) breathing down your neck cause the system crashed and she wants it up for a show. It was fun, and I will use sagetv until the basic pvr functions no longer functions. I use clients pc, boxee can pickup some of the sagetv duties and it has an Android app for remote control. I still believe pc clients are the way to go due to flexibility, extender have proven there limitations again. Step out of the sagetv box.

Well, it's not extreme to me because my backup software overwrites and it could not care, really, how many times a day it backs up. And it only keeps 1 day total of Sage files and 2 days total of c: ghosts. Screw the WAF stuff; I keep lots of shows on Sage I want and my son wants also.

I don't need to get a life, because I have one already. Part of the reason I do is because my backup software handles all this sort of stuff for me. Over the many years that BTV and Sage OS drives have failed or become corrupted due to a power outage, etc., it's only taken 15 minutes out of my life here and there to restore it.

It's one of the reasons Sage is fun - because Norton makes sure the hundreds of shows we have and all the settings are safe in Wiz and Properties backups, at worst, and the OS is ready to restore if necessary.

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

From what I've gleaned so far, it sounds like that's already implicit:

• Learn to love plain-vanilla SageTV (i.e. no YouTube, no weather... just record/play TV programs and play ripped movies - which is all I use Sage for anyhow)
• Keep a SageTV installer and license key handy
• Keep a Java 6 install handy
• Have a license to build an XP machine
• Have a copy of the XP SP6 install handy
• Be prepared to build up a dedicated, virgin XP SP3 box to run Sage TV on if/when MS or some other install breaks your current box.

At least that's my current fallback plan.

Am I missing anything?

No, I don't think you are missing anything. My only point in that regard was the finincial and equipment commitment to potentially replace any Sage Extender with a dedicated HTPC.

I was looking at some little Asrock systems that were about the size of a Dune extender but were full-fledged PC's. They are, barebones (no OS), $750-$950 on Newegg.com. Toss in $100-$135 for an OEM Windows license, and that's a decent chunk of change to replace a $150 box.

Those of use who build our own systems could do it for less, but I doubt less than $400-$500 when you factor in the OS license and a decent HTPC case, not to mention the rest of the hardware.

Again, forget the WAF. Even I don't want some $400 POS-looking Walmart/HP mid-tower in my living room by my TV, or in our bedroom. Nor do I want my son having a full-fledged PC to mess up that it then falls on me to fix.

And I've certainly been warned by others about making sure I have a life so I don't want to back up too much... :-)

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Savage1701

Well, it's not extreme to me because my backup software overwrites and it could not care, really, how many times a day it backs up. And it only keeps 1 day total of Sage files and 2 days total of c: ghosts. Screw the WAF stuff; I keep lots of shows on Sage I want and my son wants also.

I don't need to get a life, because I have one already. Part of the reason I do is because my backup software handles all this sort of stuff for me. Over the many years that BTV and Sage OS drives have failed or become corrupted due to a power outage, etc., it's only taken 15 minutes out of my life here and there to restore it.

It's one of the reasons Sage is fun - because Norton makes sure the hundreds of shows we have and all the settings are safe in Wiz and Properties backups, at worst, and the OS is ready to restore if necessary.

I wasn't saying get a life. Apology if that's the way it came across. Just joking about all the focus we as a group are putting on the loss of sagetv. It is a big investment. I spent a $1700.00 on 2 hd PVRs, 2 hd receivers and 3 new client pc late last year and early this year to convert to hd and built a dedicated unraid server for mymovies. So I do feel your pain. I just have to find a new hobby when this ends. I guess I will start riding my motorcycles again.

[hemicuda]

it was easy for me to break sage a few weeks ago without even knowing it for a couple of days. I had to install the java development release in order to root my droid. prevented sage or any other jre-dependant program from starting until I reinstalled the jre. I guess when the hardware finally wears out I'll have to hope something similar is on the market to migrate to. My hd100 is already showing signs of trouble.

[Savage1701]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Yes, there are software/java/os updates that could break sage... the point here is that non of them are mandatory.

But you keep missing my point - none of them are mandatory FOR SAGE. But, that means you MUST be committed to relegating every client computer to be used for ONLY Sage, potentially. And you must also be committed to making everything else on that client be unable to be updated. So, financially, that's a BIG "What can go wrong".

What if Sage had been frozen at XP, and SP1 and SP2 and such broke it, but now you need SP1 or SP2 because your graphics card gives out, and the new driver for the new card needs it? It's happened to me. I have tons of orphaned hardware, and would have tons more if I never updated.

I also keep some old notebooks with serial ports and XP and FTP and TFTP utilities for updating and diagnosing some older PDU's and stuff that must be telnet'd into. So, in a sense, I have a FTP/TFTP/telnet portable appliance. But it's not good for anything else to speak of. I guess if you have the cash to commit to freezing a client and keeping backup hardware you are fine. But to me that's still a BIG "What can go wrong?" issue.

All I'm saying is, yes, you can appliance it, and hope you are never forced into a rock-and-a-hard-place situation. But that's expensive, and needs to be taken into account if you are planning ahead.

Heck, at that point go on Ebay and just suck it up and buy extenders +1 spare. And hopefully in 5 years those guys over at MediaPortal will really be onto some good stuff with 1.(some digit less than 7) and MP 2 Alpha/Beta/whatever will be "just around the corner" as it has for years already...

[Fuzzy]

To be fair, it has long been the recomendation of MOST the long time users here to appliance the sagetv components anyways. It was always teh best way to go, and now, it remains so. Still nothing has changed.

[OneOfMany]

With the prevalence of threads on this forum from users still running/installing XP, and running Sage 5 & 6, it is apparent that not everyone shares the view that everything must be updated the moment an update appears.

As far as appliancing.. it is the way to go for an HTPC that is relied on to provide TV appliance-like service. Just like my POS clients for my employees. They are locaked down to the point they are just that - appliances.

Grant

[wayner]

By POS do you mean Point Of Sale or Piece Of Shite?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by OneOfMany

As far as appliancing...

Could somebody give a definition of "Appliancing"?

I've got kind of a vague idea from context but...

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Could somebody give a definition of "Appliancing"?

I've got kind of a vague idea from context but...

In short, if you've got a fully working system... don't touch it.

[jhh]

Originally Posted by gplasky

3. No new tuner support-Going forward you will probably not see brand new tuners being supported.

While you have a point it is not completely a dead end. Tuners can be added as network encoders and Stephane has built a connection to dvbviewer:

http://www.lmgestion.net/@en-us/4/22/90/article.asp

This means that every encoder supported in dvbviewer can be used. I'm running two satellite receivers through this one for quite a while already.

Agreed dvbviewer is targeted at satellite tuners but at least as a concept it is proven that it can be done.

Being in Europe I'm a long time where you guys are now - no EPG, no supported tuners but through xmltv, network encoding it does work great

Jhh

[Fuzzy]

Been using my R5000's for years via the network encoder path, and yes, it is very simple, and yes, it does work very well.

[gplasky]

Originally Posted by jhh

While you have a point it is not completely a dead end. Tuners can be added as network encoders and Stephane has built a connection to dvbviewer:

http://www.lmgestion.net/@en-us/4/22/90/article.asp

This means that every encoder supported in dvbviewer can be used. I'm running two satellite receivers through this one for quite a while already.

Agreed dvbviewer is targeted at satellite tuners but at least as a concept it is proven that it can be done.

Being in Europe I'm a long time where you guys are now - no EPG, no supported tuners but through xmltv, network encoding it does work great

Jhh

And that would also be assuming that dvbviewer adds support for new tuners. I'm not familiar with dvbviewer. So I would also guess dvbviewer doesn't support the Ceton card, the upcoming HDHomerun Prime or the Hauppague WinTV-DCR-2650. Or maybe I'm wrong and it does.

Gerry

[photon]

My system is built around Windows Home Server and extenders. No client PCs. Thus everything is pretty much already an appliance. Hardware failure of the Extenders is really my only small concern for the next 3-5 years and I still have two HD100s to fall back on in a pinch. The Windows home server hardware can be replaced and WHS and sage reinstalled. Tuners are very reliable but if necessary I could replace my HDhomeruns and reasonably expect the new ones to work.

I backup the entire sage directory every now and then especially before making significant changes so I'm pretty well covered with regard to always having a working sage install.

Software wise EPG is critical but that doesn't appear to be an issue for the next year and workarounds exist if necessary after that.

Worst case is my system goes static sometime in that 3-5 year period and it's already static on Sage 6 WHS because I'm really very happy with it as is and not looking for changes. I'm working on a Sage7 build on separate newer WHS hardware. As long as this community exists totally static seems unlikely :-).