Sandy Bridge / mini-ITX questions

[ThePaladinTech]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116394 $134 I3-2100T (Intel HD Graphics 2000 35w)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115090 $139 I3-2105 (Intel HD Graphics 3000 65w)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819116400 $219 i5-2405S (IntelHD Graphics 3000 65w)

Looking (again) for some opinions on the above processors –

I was / am also looking at the AMD e350 or an AMD Llano (when it gets an ITX board). My reasons for the e350 are: Heat, availability in a pre-built tiny unit. My reason for an AMD solution over an intel is from what I know, better video and sound support. (timing is closer to correct on AMD for movies)

Fuzzy and others have indicated that they feel a sandy bridge would be a better solution, and it does seem the stats on the i3 are magnitudes faster, and I can build a sandy bridge for less than the e350 I am looking at (not quite as tiny though…) From all my reading the e350 would have no problems playing anything, it’s while it is running the menus that it will struggle.

My expected use will be solely for an HTPC client (playing content) – Right now I have a HD-100 so you can use that as a bench mark for what I am used too, and an HD-300 for my desired speed.

My *only* reason for getting the I3-2100T would be heat – whatever I get will be going in the smallest ITX VESA mount box I can find. Which right now is this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811108378 in fact the only one. It will be mounted on the back of my tv and be enclosed in a wood armoire most of the time. (my Tivo has no problem living in there, I need something else that doesn’t turn the space into an oven). I don’t think I need to worry about heat while I am using it as the doors to the cabinet will be open, unless someone thinks the case I am looking at would be an issue.

Not sure I understand enough about TDP to make an informed decision.

Is the i3-2100T’s HD 2000 graphics good enough?

How much more heat would we be talking about with the two 65watt options?

Thanks for the wisdom

[razrsharpe]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

whatever I get will be going in the smallest ITX VESA mount box I can find. Which right now is this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811108378 in fact the only one.

http://www.logicsupply.com/products/m350 this is a 1/2" shorter (2.5") and has a m350 vesa mounting option...

How much more heat would we be talking about with the two 65watt options?

about twice as much ?

in all seriousness though any processor you get is probably very rarely cranking at 100% for any length of time so the true thermal output between the different processors is probably close to the same.. thats just my gut feeling though, i dont have any hard facts to back that up. If it were me id probably get the case i linked too and the intel core i3-2100. Then if heat became an issue i would underclock the processor...

[dgeezer]

If this is to be a client wouldn't it be sleeping when the doors are closed?

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by dgeezer

If this is to be a client wouldn't it be sleeping when the doors are closed?

I would like it to be ready to go as fast as the extender is - my current setup is ready to go in 18seconds. My trial of S3 sleep on a wireless laptop took over a minute to reconnect to the sage server. (the S3 recover itself was like 5 seconds). Now perhaps the time was related to the wireless connection, I don't know. Using an SSD drive isn't out of the question if it gets me to a sub 30 second ready for use time frame.

And there is this from google+

I think it depends on your network card. I have one wired PC client that connects back up in about 5 seconds. Another is about 10-20 seconds because it takes that network care much longer to rejoin the network for some reason.

Originally Posted by razrsharpe

about twice as much ?

in all seriousness though any processor you get is probably very rarely cranking at 100% for any length of time so the true thermal output between the different processors is probably close to the same.. thats just my gut feeling though, i dont have any hard facts to back that up.

And that is where I go all fuzzy... Yeah Twice as much if it is cranking on something. But will an E350 be running at say 90% utilization to do something the I5 can do at 10% utilization -- resulting in them both generating the same amount of heat, BUT, leaving the I5 with 90% of "headroom" where the E350 will be nearly maxed out??

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

I would like it to be ready to go as fast as the extender is - my current setup is ready to go in 18seconds. My trial of S3 sleep on a wireless laptop took over a minute to reconnect to the sage server. (the S3 recover itself was like 5 seconds). Now perhaps the time was related to the wireless connection, I don't know. Using an SSD drive isn't out of the question if it gets me to a sub 30 second ready for use time frame.

And there is this from google+





And that is where I go all fuzzy... Yeah Twice as much if it is cranking on something. But will an E350 be running at say 90% utilization to do something the I5 can do at 10% utilization -- resulting in them both generating the same amount of heat, BUT, leaving the I5 with 90% of "headroom" where the E350 will be nearly maxed out??

The best way to find out the heat output would be the power consumption from the wall. If system x consumes ~110w at load then that is about how much heat it is outputting (sort of). If system y consumes 50w at load then it will obviously put out less heat. I would think the E350 would put out the least heat because of the reduced power consumption.

This article states that at load the E350 system puts out around 33.4 wats. That is very very low. You'd be hard pressed to find something that puts out less than that.

[IVB]

How exactly does that VESA mount work? My plasma is on an articulating VESA mount, it's been YEARS since I looked and trying to remember but I don't think there's a 2nd set of VESA on the TV. Does the case go on the outside of the plate, then the plate, then the TV, so the screws go through both case & plate before attaching?

[ThePaladinTech]

Totally agreed - an e350 solution will be the best for heat, Ive got another topic on the forums regarding the e350. It's certainly still in contention, It's just pretty muddy as to what would be the best solution all things considered

My e350 thread is here: http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56425

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by IVB

How exactly does that VESA mount work? My plasma is on an articulating VESA mount, it's been YEARS since I looked and trying to remember but I don't think there's a 2nd set of VESA on the TV. Does the case go on the outside of the plate, then the plate, then the TV, so the screws go through both case & plate before attaching?

I think for the ones I am looking at you have to use the TV stand and they are taking advantage of the unused Vesa mount. So that wont work for you

[panteragstk]

Well then. I'm going to have to see how much more an i3 mitx box would end up costing. If the cpu is that bad, I can see that being irritating especially since I'm used to my client being so fast.

Ok, if we replace the e350 with an h67 board and a i3 2100t (35w) the total price for the client goes up to $476 from $389 for my client build. Or I could just get one of these and lose out on the blu-ray drive.

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

Well then. I'm going to have to see how much more an i3 mitx box would end up costing. If the cpu is that bad, I can see that being irritating especially since I'm used to my client being so fast.

Ok, if we replace the e350 with an h67 board and a i3 2100t (35w) the total price for the client goes up to $476 from $389 for my client build. Or I could just get one of these and lose out on the blu-ray drive.

now you begin to see why I am posting so much, If I understand things correctly that one is I3 but not "sandy bridge"

Here's the mini-itx board that supports sandy bridge that I am looking at: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157239

I think the H67 chipset is what makes it sandy bridge capable.

Oh and there is a samsung USB blu-ray for ~$100

One more edit- I have yet to find a small barebone sandy bridge yet - which takes us to the mini-itx build

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

now you begin to see why I am posting so much, If I understand things correctly that one is I3 but not "sandy bridge"

Here's the mini-itx board that supports sandy bridge that I am looking at: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157239

I think the H67 chipset is what makes it sandy bridge capable.

Oh and there is a samsung USB blu-ray for ~$100

One more edit- I have yet to find a small barebone sandy bridge yet - which takes us to the mini-itx build

I read about the little Giada system with the mobile i3 that is around the same cpu power of the e350. I think the best bet is what you are looking at. I found a little Foxconn barebone that is pretty cheap. You can use a full size HDD (or SSD) and Blu-ray drive that way you don't have to get an expensive external drive. With the exception of wifi it has all the features of that motherboard you are looking at. It is basically the client I have in my sig, but much smaller and sandy bridge instead of clarkdale. I can tell you that my client is awesome. You can't go wrong with an i3 for a client.

[Fuzzy]

I think if the e350 can work, it would be the better choice... I have yet to see a report of any users who've actually bought one and set it up as a SageTV Client, so I can't really comment. I KNOW the i3's can handle it (my last generation, slowest available clarkdale i3-530 works perfectly fine, only hitting a limit on 3D Bluray content). It was the best option available when i built it (preferring it above the Ion platform).

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I read about the little Giada system with the mobile i3 that is around the same cpu power of the e350. I think the best bet is what you are looking at. I found a little Foxconn barebone that is pretty cheap. You can use a full size HDD (or SSD) and Blu-ray drive that way you don't have to get an expensive external drive. With the exception of wifi it has all the features of that motherboard you are looking at. It is basically the client I have in my sig, but much smaller and sandy bridge instead of clarkdale. I can tell you that my client is awesome. You can't go wrong with an i3 for a client.

External drives don't HAVE to be expensive. I'm using a standard 5 1/4 external enclosure for my BD-Rom (like $25 i think). It fits in nicely next to my hec mini-itx case. (I'd be using the optical bay IN the hec case, but it's a slim bay, and I already had a full-size drive).

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

now you begin to see why I am posting so much, If I understand things correctly that one is I3 but not "sandy bridge"

Here's the mini-itx board that supports sandy bridge that I am looking at: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157239

I think the H67 chipset is what makes it sandy bridge capable.

Oh and there is a samsung USB blu-ray for ~$100

One more edit- I have yet to find a small barebone sandy bridge yet - which takes us to the mini-itx build

The i3-330UM is a mobile version from the previous generation. It is a VERY low powered processor, at a TDP of 18W. It is not Sandy Bridge, but actually Arrandale. It's GPU does have the same basic functionality as the Clarkdale's, but they run a bit slower (500MHz for the Arrandale-UM, 733MHz for the Clarkdale 530). The CPU itself, though is QUITE a bit slower, at 1.2GHz . (vs. 2.92GHz for my Clarkdale-530). It might perform better than an Ion, but not by much.

[ThePaladinTech]

Fuzzy - Thanks for weighing in on this. Babgvant did a review on the very e350 client I am looking at (Zotac w/ bluray) ... he said his biggest complaint was how long it took to get running. and that the menus moved slower then he'd like. I am still considering the e350 because I am not sure it will seem slow to me, all I have is an HD-100. I've seen an hd-200, and hd-300 and know they perform much better then mine - but my ruler is the hd-100. and I suspect you, panteragstk, and babgvant's judge the e350 against other PCs (which makes sense). And it does have me looking at other client PCs.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

Fuzzy - Thanks for weighing in on this. Babgvant did a review on the very e350 client I am looking at (Zotac w/ bluray) ... he said his biggest complaint was how long it took to get running. and that the menus moved slower then he'd like. I am still considering the e350 because I am not sure it will seem slow to me, all I have is an HD-100. I've seen an hd-200, and hd-300 and know they perform much better then mine - but my ruler is the hd-100. and I suspect you, panteragstk, and babgvant's judge the e350 against other PCs (which makes sense). And it does have me looking at other client PCs.

I looked all day yesterday on newegg trying random combinations of sandy bridge i3 vs i3 330 vs e350 and the price difference is around $65 for a full i3 vs the other two. I think the extra is worth it to me. I've gotten used to how fast my i3 runs through everything so I'd like to have my future clients run the same way.

[ThePaladinTech]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

I looked all day yesterday on newegg trying random combinations of sandy bridge i3 vs i3 330 vs e350 and the price difference is around $65 for a full i3 vs the other two. I think the extra is worth it to me. I've gotten used to how fast my i3 runs through everything so I'd like to have my future clients run the same way.

And for me it is boiling down to what I think is a very nice looking zotac unit that fits where I need it to. OR a faster solution screwed to the back of my tv with a slim usb blu-ray drive where I can get at it (thinking just to the left of the TV stand below the screen). Let me know what you came up with from you newegg search.

[rlvogel322]

What about something like this? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16856107080

It even comes with W7 but I'm not sure what playback would be like.

[ThePaladinTech]

An AMD E350 solution would be better than any atom based solution from everything I have seen.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by ThePaladinTech

An AMD E350 solution would be better than any atom based solution from everything I have seen.

Yep. So would the i3 330.