Just in case- Alternatives to SageTV

[BobbyDing]

I played with Myth a bit a few years ago. Myth was a decent experience as long as you stuck with the well supported and tested hardware. There was some tinkering, but it worked. It was SageTV's extenders that initially made me drop Myth and go with Sage (then I got hooked). I am surprised nobody has made WD Live firmware that emulates a Myth front end. I cannot remember, is Myth a UPnP server?

[kricker]

Originally Posted by SJL

Hey Kricker,
I'm going to be experimenting with MediaPortal for the first time this weekend - one item I noticed was the scheduling is simplistic compared to Sage - then I saw the supposed solution to that is a plug-in called ForTheRecord. Did you see that or happen to try it by chance? It looks like it can control the tuners and replace the TV server in MediaPortal completely.

I mentioned For the Record earlier in the same post as Media Portal. It was also extremely frustrating to setup. I had worse results with it, and yes I RTFM.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by SHS

That why us HTPC user are smart we know better then to buy in to TiVo BS we only pay $0 year if it was SageTV or MCE to $20 year for 3rdparty apps for EPG.

Let see even this not out just a best guest
TiVo Premiere Q: $400 to $500
TiVo Preview: $100 (1 Client)
TiVo service Lifetime: $500
3-yr. extended warranty: $40
Subtotal: $1040 to $1140

Sure, we didn't pay a monthly fee with Sage for EPG data, but overall the entire setup was pretty expensive. If you wanted to record 4 HD cable channels at once on Sage I would need to pay 4x$180=$720, plus 4x$8=$32 per month in STB rental fees (about, I'm not completely sure what I pay). And that doesn't even include the cost of everything else in a Sage system.

TiVo, Moxi, etc. systems don't really look at expensive next to Sage systems. Overall the price differences are probably mostly a wash, but you're trading off a system that's expandable for one that should "just work," if you go from a Sage system to a TiVo.

Also, I strongly suspect you're low-balling the TiVo Premiere Q cost. I would be surprised if the unit sells for less than $600, and if the Preview box goes for less than $200. That would bring the total cost to over $1300.

As of rigth now
No Anlog support
No Extender
No PC Client
Harddrive Expandable blow's and you my as well forget any NAS Box
Video, Music, Pictures area is really poor

Sure, we're not going to find the perfect system. No matter any of us do, we're going to have to make tradeoffs. Stick with Sage and you have limited support, no future development, poor music functionality, and very limited support for online video. Move to TiVo and you basically lose everything except DVR functionality (and hopefully they have extenders).

I wonder how limiting a lack of analog support really is. It really isn't for anyone in the DC area, as far as I know, since i think all of the cable providers have done all-digital (or at least simulcast analog channels in digital).

This My idea of real get up go setup

Sure, sounds great, albeit probably very expensive. But, I can't imagine we'll actually see anything like that.

In general, I think expandability isn't really valued that much by consumers, manufacturers, or salespersons. Consumers just want something that works out of the box- they don't want to worry about what other components they'll have to buy down the line. Manufacturers and sales people, I suspect, like limited expandability too, so they can upsell products to people by telling them they need to "plan for the future."

I'm a little curious: why are so many people convinced that their next DVR will be a PC-based DVR, like Myth or MediaPortal? Thus far I think only me and stanger are the only ones saying we think we're going to move to an out-of-the-box solution. What are the main things keeping you from a TiVo or cable/satellite provider DVR?

[drewg]

Originally Posted by BobbyDing

I played with Myth a bit a few years ago. Myth was a decent experience as long as you stuck with the well supported and tested hardware. There was some tinkering, but it worked. It was SageTV's extenders that initially made me drop Myth and go with Sage (then I got hooked). I am surprised nobody has made WD Live firmware that emulates a Myth front end. I cannot remember, is Myth a UPnP server?

Yes, mythtv is a UPnP server. But if you use a UPnP client, you don't get things like comskip, live tv, scheduling, etc.

I ran Myth from ~2005 until the HD100 came out in 2007, when I converted to SageTV. In my experience from running a linux server with both, SageTV is *much* easier to setup, but they're roughly equivalent once they are setup and running, assuming the channel setup does not change. One of the reasons I put up an antenna was to avoid having to waste hours re-configuring QAM channels in Myth if my cable provider remapped things. Qam (and all things digital) channel setup is like the 9th circle of hell in Mythtv, often requiring you manually manipulate the server's mysql database to fix things. When I migrated to SageTV I set aside an afternoon just to do channel setup for OTA stations, and was pleasantly surprised to be done in 10 minutes.

That said, things may have gotten better. I read their mailing lists, and I think making this easier is one of their goals. The HDHR scan import thing when using SageTV on Windows is a few orders of magnitude more advanced than anything I've seen from Myth.

Drew

[flavius]

Originally Posted by SHS

.....
That why us HTPC user are smart we know better then to buy in to TiVo BS we only pay $0 year if it was SageTV or MCE to $20 year for 3rdparty apps for EPG.

Yeah, I should look at this more from the cost perspective. With Sage I couldn't get myself to do that either. The simple reason is that the TCO (total cost of ownership) per year is very likely not to be much different.

Maybe we should have a TiVo thread when the Elite (4-tuner system) is available for retail.

[heffneil]

Originally Posted by SHS

Maybe GoogleTV 3.0 Super Software that Server and Client and Phone suppout and god know what else we can dream up.

Um I know people who spend 10's of thousands of dollars advertising with google ad words and they couldn't reach a single person on the phone. I doubt we will get any phone support.

My plan B is whole home DVR from Directv with an external storage and then use something like plex for my videos with roku and or apple tv. Kids will love watching the movies on their ipads.

Neil

[Korny]

Originally Posted by valnar

It's too bad Mythbuntu or one of the derivatives don't come with a nice self-contained ISO that works "out of the box". One ISO for the server, one for a client. Sounds like a good time for some Enterprising Linux guru to make one. With "official" support, I'd even be willing to pay $30 for such a user friendly version of MythTV, especially considering Sage cost more than that.

While there are no client specific ISO vs server its more because of packages. When installing mythbuntu you can choose to set it up as a frontend only. Google search is your friend when trying to configure mythtv, its not bad if the hardware is supported(much like linux version of sage).

[simonen]

Originally Posted by heffneil

My plan B is whole home DVR from Directv with an external storage and then use something like plex for my videos with roku and or apple tv. Kids will love watching the movies on their ipads.

I see a setup like this in my future as well as soon as I get back to the US. I have already remotely shutdown my system and cancelled my internet and cable service. It was time for a change either way and this will give me 4-5 months to figure out a new setup.

BTW, I am one of those people who have spent 10's of thousands of dollars with Google advertising also. As someone in marketing, it is one of of those things you can measure and show a value, unlike magazine advertisements. I am not saying those don't work, but no a days, exec'ts want stats.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by heffneil

Um I know people who spend 10's of thousands of dollars advertising with google ad words and they couldn't reach a single person on the phone. I doubt we will get any phone support.

My plan B is whole home DVR from Directv with an external storage and then use something like plex for my videos with roku and or apple tv. Kids will love watching the movies on their ipads.

Neil

Neil wish you the best of luck with DirecTV whole home DVR I have it here and belive me win I say it not all what it crack up to be.
Oh DirecTV UI is still ekkk

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Sure, we didn't pay a monthly fee with Sage for EPG data, but overall the entire setup was pretty expensive.

While there was sort of an expensive startup and then basic learning curve, what hooked me on Sage was the simple but endless customization ability, not to mention with Tivo etc, your locked to their limited HD space, Sage, your space was whatever size drives you bought and stacked. I think alot of us have enough TV to last us a year or so should the apocalypse of zombies come.

[heffneil]

Originally Posted by SHS

Neil wish you the best of luck with DirecTV whole home DVR I have it here and belive me win I say it not all what it crack up to be.
Oh DirecTV UI is still ekkk

I hate the directv guide. It is awfully slow and changing channels is a bear. I don't want to go this route but I want to have my recordings available to me on any tv. Streaming my library of movies is really easy - lots of options there - plex, air video, apple home sharing. Most anything will work. Again using two different systems isn't convenient. Having two different set top boxes isn't convenient either.

[heffneil]

Originally Posted by Zippster

While there was sort of an expensive startup and then basic learning curve, what hooked me on Sage was the simple but endless customization ability, not to mention with Tivo etc, your locked to their limited HD space, Sage, your space was whatever size drives you bought and stacked. I think alot of us have enough TV to last us a year or so should the apocalypse of zombies come.

I couldn't disagree more. SageTV was so cheap I didn't know how they could make any money. The service license was what? $80? Come on now. You pick your own hardware and the extender at $150 isn't the cheapest (apple tv) but it got cheaper over time and more powerful. I couldn't see how SageTV could have been anymore affordable...

Neil

[KarylFStein]

Originally Posted by SHS

Neil wish you the best of luck with DirecTV whole home DVR I have it here and belive me win I say it not all what it crack up to be.
Oh DirecTV UI is still ekkk

The "Home Media Center", (HR34--not yet released to the public), is what looks interesting to me. Not that it can replace everything SageTV does, but I'll certainly give it a good look when it's released, (October is the current claim). 5 tuners, small extenders, (or RVU TVs), remote management...

[madpoet]

I have 3 hr24s and honestly it works pretty well. The thing that gets me is the lack of a central database, but otherwise it works. I do have cat5e wired in the house and the hr24 streams much better than my hr20s did.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by heffneil

I couldn't disagree more. SageTV was so cheap I didn't know how they could make any money. The service license was what? $80? Come on now. You pick your own hardware and the extender at $150 isn't the cheapest (apple tv) but it got cheaper over time and more powerful. I couldn't see how SageTV could have been anymore affordable...

I wasn't saying it could be any more affordable- I just said it was expensive. Just because Sage didn't sell it doesn't mean it wasn't part of the overall cost of a Sage system.

Here's an example price breakdown of a moderately typical multi-room HD SageTV setup:

1. Desktop Computer for SageTV Server- $500
2. 2TB Hard drive for recordings- $100
3. 2x HD-PVR- $360
4. USB-UIRT- $50
5. HDHR- $130
6. 2x HD300- $300
7. SageTV license - $80

For a total cost of $1500. Plus you'd need a couple HD STB's, which might add around $15/month to the total cost (~$500 for 3 years). That's not that extravagant of a setup. It's probably a bit on the high-end for a Sage setup, although its somewhat close to some of the systems other companies have been proposing.

A COTS DVR really ought to come out to a lower price than that. I suspect the TiVo Premiere Elite will be pretty expensive, but I doubt it will come out over $2000 for the DVR, an extender, and a lifetime subscription. I'm guessing it will be about $1500.

Of course, the main advantages of Sage was its feature set and its expandability- not its price.

[Zippster]

Originally Posted by heffneil

I couldn't disagree more. SageTV was so cheap I didn't know how they could make any money. The service license was what? $80? Come on now. You pick your own hardware and the extender at $150 isn't the cheapest (apple tv) but it got cheaper over time and more powerful. I couldn't see how SageTV could have been anymore affordable...

Neil

He said it was "pretty expensive", I said sort of, but to get into most things just starting out, the initial costs are more and then weigh out over time.
The term "expensive" is relative to each person anyways so could be debatable forever.

[SHS]

Originally Posted by KarylFStein

The "Home Media Center", (HR34--not yet released to the public), is what looks interesting to me. Not that it can replace everything SageTV does, but I'll certainly give it a good look when it's released, (October is the current claim). 5 tuners, small extenders, (or RVU TVs), remote management...

I know and very little to no real info on it and far I know of there no picture of the Hardware or UI so for now it dosen't interest me one bit.
Must be more expandable harddrive like support NAS or something like
If it don't support my other media like Video, Music, Pictures then there no point in it end of story.

[benjamintm]

Originally Posted by Korny

While there are no client specific ISO vs server its more because of packages. When installing mythbuntu you can choose to set it up as a frontend only. Google search is your friend when trying to configure mythtv, its not bad if the hardware is supported(much like linux version of sage).

There are three issues with MythTV.

First, there are no extenders that match the power efficiency of a SageTV extender or the cost. For < $130 (pre-store shutdown) you could outfit a room with an extender and get the power of SageTV in a room. With MythTV, the front-end requirements basically require at least an Atom based system with ION VPDAU like the ZOTAC, but then you need to add hard drive, memory, case, IR, pushing the cost up above $200.

Second, unless you are a Linux user, setting up MythTV is a difficult task. Mythbuntu and the like make it easier, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done. I set up a VM with MythTV and used it with an HDHomeRun and ran into a series of problems (though I did get it working).

Third, documentation is inconsistent at best. Some parts of the documentation is up to date, while other is serious out of date. With SageTV it was relatively easy to set up the server and connect it to an extender. It just worked. MythTV doesn't "just work".

Ben

[DaiTengu]

I dropped Mythbuntu on a spare drive and tossed it on my sage box to play with this weekend.

MythTV has to be one of the hardest things I've ever configured in Linux. There's lots of documentation but none of it is very precise.

just to give you an example: I'm a linux sysadmin by trade. I manage lots of different linux servers with lots of unique configurations and applications on them. It's my job, it's what I do for a living.

I'd turn down a client who wanted a MythTV box configured.

_IF_ you love tinkering with things on a constant, daily basis, MythTV may be good for you.

If you want something that "just works", go elsewhere. Anywhere else, for that matter.

[mkanet]

Jeff, I briefly played with it. I think you might be disappointed if you expect more than basic TV DVR features. At first I also thought it might be a good alternative since it kinda looks like sageTV functionality from 4 years back with server/client support. However...

It's native media center capabilities are very limited (have to rely on hardware extender capabilities). I'm guessing that's why it's called NextPVR.

Below, are some of the shortcomings of the software. Definitely not something a sageTV user could use seriously (at least I couldnt).

-Very limited plugin support. I think there are only 12 plugins total.
-It seems to use only basic folder structures for media playback as far as I can tell.
-You can forget about native Bluray ripped folder/ISO/disc playback.
-No HD audio support; have to depend on hardware extenders to provide audio support.
-Compatible hardware extenders dont support any of the NPVR plugins.
-No placeshifting over the Internet (which I use daily).
-Works on one Operating System... Windows.
-Fanart support is VERY limited. Basically just one search tool to manually download fanart; not like our BMT/phoenix fanart where everything is completely automatic; and supported in other plugins; so no eye candy such as Diamond or Phoenix.
-No streaming audio service support such as Pandora, Sirius Radio, Slacker, LastFM, Local FM radio stations (like SageTV Slimplayer).
-No movie trailer playback of recorded movies or DVD/bluray movies to preview before deciding to watch a movie or not.
-No IMDB lookup for actor info, movies, etc.
-No plugin repository.
-No R5000 support.

Originally Posted by jsonnabend

Does anyone have experience with NextPVR? Its feature set looks enticing.

- Jeff