Just in case- Alternatives to SageTV

[drewg]

Originally Posted by Skybolt

Perhaps I missed something on the guide for recording future shows. But then again I haven't been using it for much. Only testing the "Just in Case". I'll have to give it another look, my last bout was so painfully slow I more or less gave up. Thanks for clearing that up though.

That's what I've been doing too. I was using Win7 running in a KVM virtual machine on a Linux server, using an HDHR as a tuner and recording to a network share. The Xbox was the latest model (part of a Kinect bundle purchased for Christmas). Network was hard wired. It was pretty snappy. Not quite as responsive as my HD300, but far better than my HD100. The deal killer is the lack of decent playback for BD rips, MKVs, etc.

Drew

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I thought it was just Windows Media Center, with all the same features/limitations, plus some stuff bolted on top, and running Windows 7 Embedded and prepackaged.

Essentially it sounds (at a high level) just like the Ceton Q, except without any work done on the Extender front.

Right, but aren't the Ceton Echo extenders a major part of that product rollout? How interesting would the Q be without the Echo extenders?

As a side note, I vaguely remember Media Center running on a Windows Embedded system having a major limitation... I don't remember what it is/was. I thought it was something like they couldn't be used with extenders or they could use cablecard tuners. Neither one of those seems to be true anymore. Do you remember any limitations on current/previous embedded systems? I can't find anything suggested that there was/is a limitation, but I don't think I'm imagining the whole thing...

Originally Posted by Skybolt

Isn't that why there are no Microsoft Media Center servers? DRM by definition prohibits that?

As others pointed out, DRM just means the extenders/clients would have to implement and comply with DRM. Xbox360s and past media extenders have done so.

Originally Posted by panteragstk

Sounds like it has the exact functionality of a current Tivo. Not all that special on the DVR front.

Exactly. Why would someone come out with something that is basically just a TiVo? Multi-room DVR is a feature that even the non-geeks I know want. I am astonished TiVo hasn't been more aggressive at going down that route. I guess they've grown complacent, but you figure new guys wouldn't suffer from the same tunnel vision.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by drewg

That's what I've been doing too. I was using Win7 running in a KVM virtual machine on a Linux server, using an HDHR as a tuner and recording to a network share. The Xbox was the latest model (part of a Kinect bundle purchased for Christmas). Network was hard wired. It was pretty snappy. Not quite as responsive as my HD300, but far better than my HD100. The deal killer is the lack of decent playback for BD rips, MKVs, etc.

Drew

My network is hardwired also, xbox360 is 3yrs old, (Black 100gb version) everything about the interface was pretty snappy except when I went to watch a show. It literaly takes minutes for the video to be displayed from an HDHR Prime as a source. My 7MC box is an atom 525 based machine with next gen nVidia video. It's real snappy when the main box is used, just the 360 is real slow. I agree the deal breaker is BD rips and MKVs, but I am sure that will get fixed at some point. Can't wait for the Echo

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by reggie14

... As others pointed out, DRM just means the extenders/clients would have to implement and comply with DRM. Xbox360s and past media extenders have done so...

All good information. I never realized DRM extended to the extenders as it does. Makes no sense that MS never released a server version of MC then, they have a server for everything else ... Some times I wish I never heard the name Google ...

Thanks for the info guys.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Skybolt

All good information. I never realized DRM extended to the extenders as it does. Makes no sense that MS never released a server version of MC then, they have a server for everything else ... Some times I wish I never heard the name Google ...

Thanks for the info guys.

Well, remember that Microsoft generally doesn't go out of its way for enthusiast system builders. That's probably the market for a specialized Windows server build with Media Center.

A lot of HTPC enthusiasts thought MS might add Media Center to Windows Home Server. I can see the sense in that, but in practice you'd probably need/want pretty different hardware in those Home Servers compared to what we've been seeing at retail.

So, maybe Microsoft thought that if you were going to need new hardware anyway it would make more sense to go down the Windows Embedded route, rather than the Windows server route.

For the enthusiasts it doesn't seem like it would really matter. A Windows 7 box isn't that much more difficult to manage than Windows Home Server box (though, drive extender in the previous version of Home Server would have been useful). For novices, an appliance based on Windows Embedded is probably easier.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Right, but aren't the Ceton Echo extenders a major part of that product rollout? How interesting would the Q be without the Echo extenders?

That's really my point, I see people getting "excited" about this Whiteman thing, but I don't see the appeal. All it seems to be is a prepackaged WMC box but with the limitations of embedded.

Compare that to Ceton, where they're making a (large) effort to remove the biggest limitation of WMC, that being crappy client support.

Originally Posted by Skybolt

I agree the deal breaker is BD rips and MKVs, but I am sure that will get fixed at some point.

I wouldn't expect MS to fix it, they don't seem to have much interest in making WMC what we want it to be.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by stanger89

... I wouldn't expect MS to fix it, they don't seem to have much interest in making WMC what we want it to be.

Yeah, I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of a plugin of sorts. That's what Ceton will have to do if there Q is going to support those types of files, I'm guessing.

[reggie14]

Can't you already get MKVs working in media center on PCs? Do you really think its going to require a software change to Media Center to get MKVs working on an Echo extender?

I'm not terribly concerned about blu-ray folder rips. I rip all my blu-rays to MKV anyway. I was expecting MKV playback would work on an Echo.

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by reggie14

Can't you already get MKVs working in media center on PCs? Do you really think its going to require a software change to Media Center to get MKVs working on an Echo extender?

I'm not terribly concerned about blu-ray folder rips. I rip all my blu-rays to MKV anyway. I was expecting MKV playback would work on an Echo.

Pick up this thread at AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1386351&page=2

This should answer a few questions.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Skybolt

Yeah, I agree. I was thinking more along the lines of a plugin of sorts. That's what Ceton will have to do if there Q is going to support those types of files, I'm guessing.

Well here's my thought, there's one of two, IMO, "likely" options, one is that Ceton has basically merged (at least from a user perspective) Windows Media Center with robust media server/extender/media player system. I would imagine this would either launch an "external" (to the WMC Extender "app") player on the extender, or maybe launch into an entirely different media management app. Now this could be pretty seamless given Ceton would control it all, but it would most likely mean that the robust media support would require a Q.

The second option, which is what I'm hoping for (but I'm guessing is less likely), is that Ceton has just implemented "more" extender functionality than anyone else has bothered to do. I'm hoping for this because it would mean that the advanced media support would work with regular WMC machines. This would mean we could basically migrate to WMC and use any tuners WMC supports (either directly or via plugins), and build our own custom WMC machines.

Originally Posted by reggie14

Can't you already get MKVs working in media center on PCs? Do you really think its going to require a software change to Media Center to get MKVs working on an Echo extender?

You can get it to work on PCs, but to get it to work on Extenders requires additional software that transcodes/remuxes media files the extenders don't support. Like MKV, DTS-HD, TrueHD, DVDs, Blu-rays, etc.

Now the big question, one I've not seen an answer to, is if the limitations of current extenders are merely limitations of the extenders, or if there's some fundamental limitation of the extender protocol. If it's the former, then Ceton could just go make a better extender, but if it's the later, then that would require MS to fix it, or Ceton to bolt the support on top of WMC as a sort of plugin/extension.

I'm not terribly concerned about blu-ray folder rips. I rip all my blu-rays to MKV anyway. I was expecting MKV playback would work on an Echo.

The fundamental problem right now with extenders, is that AFAIK, there's no, or very poor support for the advanced codecs on Blu-ray, like H.264, DTS-HD MA, TrueHD, PCM audio, etc. Right now if you don't want your WMC machine to transcode stuff, you've basically got to convert everything to DVR-MS or wtv or something format (natively supported by extenders) and you lose HBR audio, and you have to reduce the bitrate of the video as well.

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The fundamental problem right now with extenders, is that AFAIK, there's no, or very poor support for the advanced codecs on Blu-ray, like H.264, DTS-HD MA, TrueHD, PCM audio, etc. Right now if you don't want your WMC machine to transcode stuff, you've basically got to convert everything to DVR-MS or wtv or something format (natively supported by extenders) and you lose HBR audio, and you have to reduce the bitrate of the video as well.

Have you tried my procedure here? I used to have playback problem with DTS-HD and TRUE-HD on my extenders, but now everything works fine.

Eddy

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by routerunner

Have you tried my procedure here? I used to have playback problem with DTS-HD and TRUE-HD on my extenders, but now everything works fine.

Eddy

I was talking Windows Media Center extenders. That said though, my HD300 is very flaky now that I'm running HDMI Audio+Video to my AVM50V.

[routerunner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I was talking Windows Media Center extenders. That said though, my HD300 is very flaky now that I'm running HDMI Audio+Video to my AVM50V.

I do apologize, next time I'll read more carefully, but you know, I'm still thinking this is a SageTV forum, so when the "extender" word is used my heart immediately jumps

EDIT & OT: Did you really spend $6000 on that AV processor ? I'm so envious, I don't even dare to ask about your speakers...

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by routerunner

EDIT & OT: Did you really spend $6000 on that AV processor ? I'm so envious, I don't even dare to ask about your speakers...

Well they did cut me a bit of a deal on it. It's something I've been wanting for several years and I was finally able to get. For some reason I just couldn't bring myself to "downgrade" from an AVM20 (which was a lot cheaper) to an AVR.

Speakers are just some Klipsch's I've accumulated over the years.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Well they did cut me a bit of a deal on it. It's something I've been wanting for several years and I was finally able to get. For some reason I just couldn't bring myself to "downgrade" from an AVM20 (which was a lot cheaper) to an AVR.

Speakers are just some Klipsch's I've accumulated over the years.

I find it hard to believe you have "just some klipsch's". If you are the type you seem to be (quality focused) then they'd have to be decent klipsch speakers.

[antisoshal]

I have not tried this as of now, but I feel this is worth mentioning: MythTV is in fact compiled, maintained and updated for both 32bit and 64bit windows.

http://mythtvwindows.sourceforge.net/

[Slugger]

Originally Posted by antisoshal

I have not tried this as of now, but I feel this is worth mentioning: MythTV is in fact compiled, maintained and updated for both 32bit and 64bit windows.

http://mythtvwindows.sourceforge.net/

That's the client only. The mythtv server still only runs on Linux. And that's not a big deal, except there are no drivers for Colossus on Linux.

[antisoshal]

Originally Posted by Slugger

That's the client only. The mythtv server still only runs on Linux. And that's not a big deal, except there are no drivers for Colossus on Linux.

Actually, no. Thats the whole thing.

"MythTV runs and is officially supported on Windows but an official exe is not distributed"

That sourceforge site is nothing more than an automated compile of the newest build. The problem is that most tuners are not supported in the windows compile, so while the server/backend is there, it is mostly useless. That said, I think most of us are using stand alone capture devices such as the HDPVR which have a standard WDM driver. I'm looking for an answer as to if the basic backend can use standard windows WDM API sources, and the hints I've found are yes. The real problem with myth is that its maintained by linux people who casually assume that things everyone like them should know are in fact universal knowledge. They then simply don't think to include them in instructions and someone with no real linux experience is utterly lost and will never succeed.

[antisoshal]

http://www.softsystem.co.uk/mythtv/run-win32.htm

Theres a little more info on making MythTV work on Windows. Keep in mind I haven't done this nor am I recommending it. I learned a little from a linux Zealot I know about it being mostly plausible and have been casually watching its development

[Skybolt]

Originally Posted by stanger89

...The second option, ... This would mean we could basically migrate to WMC and use any tuners WMC supports (either directly or via plugins), and build our own custom WMC machines.

I really hope you're 2nd option is the case, that would just be to good to be true. Thanks for you're input.

BTW - I never realized that the 360 supported the standard IR remote for MCE. You are 100% right - full DVR capability, as long as you have a remote. I had never tested the 360 with the remote, only the game controller which does not support the DVR 100%. Glad I said something, I never would have tried the MCE remote ...