Just in case- Alternatives to SageTV

[flavius]

^Now, if you put this together with Jeff's recent statement that he still working on 'SageTV' everyday (taken literally here), then well, the plot is thickening: Google is working on a SageTV based device that would like to take on TiVo, just like Ceton's Q does. With CableCard support? Money should not be a problem - but could this be pulled off in just 6 month?

Edit: Got to check avsforum now..

[PiX64]

Originally Posted by flavius

^Now, if you put this together with Jeff's recent statement that he still working on 'SageTV' everyday (taken literally here), then well, the plot is thickening: Google is working on a SageTV based device that would like to take on TiVo, just like Ceton's Q does. With CableCard support? Money should not be a problem - but could this be pulled off in just 6 month?

Edit: Got to check avsforum now..

good grief

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by flavius

^Now, if you put this together with Jeff's recent statement that he still working on 'SageTV' everyday (taken literally here), then well, the plot is thickening: Google is working on a SageTV based device that would like to take on TiVo, just like Ceton's Q does. With CableCard support? Money should not be a problem - but could this be pulled off in just 6 month?

Edit: Got to check avsforum now..

Not to build on your wild speculations, but sage HAD been working on a plug-n-play server solution for some time to go along with the success of their extenders. They, at the time, opted for the pre-configured/auto-configuring boot drive (Server-on-a-stick they called it), most likely because they didn't have the capital and hardware production capabilities to create a full system and still be cost competitive with tivo and such. In the back of my mind I had thought this would be a possibility after the google acquisition (and coincide with them dropping S.o.S development over a year ago), but still feel it is a too-good-to-be-true scenario until more concrete evidence points otherwise.

[flavius]

I just found an article in the online version of Germany's largest news paper (Bild Zeitung): The headline is: Is Google Attacking Apple TV? The article calls this the possibly last hurra of GoogleTV, an attempt to create an ecosystem with Android, very much like Apple has been creating with iTunes and Apple TV.

Pretty wild, I guess.

[drewg]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Not to build on your wild speculations, but sage HAD been working on a plug-n-play server solution for some time to go along with the success of their extenders. They, at the time, opted for the pre-configured/auto-configuring boot drive (Server-on-a-stick they called it), most likely because they didn't have the capital and hardware production capabilities to create a full system and still be cost competitive with tivo and such.

The problem with being competitive with Tivo is not the hardware cost, it is CableCard , TV listings licensing and customer support.

I always thought that their plug-n-play server was going to be a slightly beefier HD300. The reasoning behind this is that the HD300 comes with a very recent version of linux-dvb (the the Linux DVB/ATSC/QAM driver stack) -- much more recent than what comes with the 2.6.33 kernel used in the HD300. I've actually plugged a USB stick into my HD300 and used it (albeit with command-line tools).

If I remember right, the HD300 cost $150. Picture a beefier HD300 in a box the size of an HD100, or a bit larger with
1G RAM + $10
2 UB435Q USB tuners + $60
1 1GB HDD + $60 (at the time)

So they could sell for $300 and still make money, with very minimal hardware additions. But once you throw cable card tuners in there, the cost gets all blown to hell since they'd almost certainly need to go through Cable Labs cert. And to add more fun to the mix, I'd be willing to bet they'd need to re-negotiate their TV listings license with Tribune Media, since I'm guessing it was based on "homebrew PVR" software, and not consumer electronics devices.

All just wild speculation..

Drew

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by drewg

The problem with being competitive with Tivo is not the hardware cost, it is CableCard , TV listings licensing and customer support.

I always thought that their plug-n-play server was going to be a slightly beefier HD300. The reasoning behind this is that the HD300 comes with a very recent version of linux-dvb (the the Linux DVB/ATSC/QAM driver stack) -- much more recent than what comes with the 2.6.33 kernel used in the HD300. I've actually plugged a USB stick into my HD300 and used it (albeit with command-line tools).

If I remember right, the HD300 cost $150. Picture a beefier HD300 in a box the size of an HD100, or a bit larger with
1G RAM + $10
2 UB435Q USB tuners + $60
1 1GB HDD + $60 (at the time)

So they could sell for $300 and still make money, with very minimal hardware additions. But once you throw cable card tuners in there, the cost gets all blown to hell since they'd almost certainly need to go through Cable Labs cert. And to add more fun to the mix, I'd be willing to bet they'd need to re-negotiate their TV listings license with Tribune Media, since I'm guessing it was based on "homebrew PVR" software, and not consumer electronics devices.

All just wild speculation..

Drew

All of that is based on the assumption that the device needs to make money. Google is not a hardware manufacturer, but if a hardware device will provide them with marketing information, they they will happily take a loss on the hardware to increase the advertising income.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

All of that is based on the assumption that the device needs to make money. Google is not a hardware manufacturer, but if a hardware device will provide them with marketing information, they they will happily take a loss on the hardware to increase the advertising income.

That is one of the things that makes me uneasy about the Google/Sage merger. Even if they come out with some great HD300 replacement I don't want them tracking what I record, watch online, etc.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

... but sage HAD been working on a plug-n-play server solution for some time to go along with the success of their extenders.

By what standard do you call their extenders a success? Although I am purely speculating myself I wouldn't rank the HD300 in the top 20 extenders when it comes to sales. Even discounting the XBox 360 and PS3 as extenders, the Roku, ATV2, Boxee Box, various Popcorn Hours and PopBoxes, Dunes, various WDTVs, Asus O!Plays, Google TV (Sony/Logitech), Netgear, and dozens of Realtek devices probably all have higher sales. The SageTV extenders are a niche product for a niche market which doesn't seem to be the ROI that Google is after. The top extenders can't even play mpeg2/ac3 files well, highlighting the dilemma that PVR users must live with.

Martin

[Fuzzy]

The 'top extenders', by your apparent definition, are focused on playing two different sources. Streaming content from youtube, netflix, and hulu is the first. Second is 'archived' media (most likely downloaded via .torrent or usenet), which is invariably H.264 for bandwidth concerns. This is why the do not play back 'DVR content', and why I do not call them extenders, but media streamers. As far as I know, the only 'extenders' that have ever been sold (extender being a device that extends another device's reach to a secondary viewing location), is the XBox360, the myriad of other MCE extenders, all of which, like the HD100/200/300, are out of production. The HD100's release greatly increased sage's user-base, as did the 200 and 300's releases. As the purpose of the extender is to expand the use of the primary product, i do consider them a great success.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

As the purpose of the extender is to expand the use of the primary product, i do consider them a great success.

Okay thanks, I accept that success in meeting this goal as an achievement, even if it means nothing to the bottom-line as a consumer success.

Martin

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Google is not a hardware manufacturer, but if a hardware device will provide them with marketing information, they they will happily take a loss on the hardware to increase the advertising income.

I think the first part of that quote is the key part: Google is not a hardware manufacturer. With the exception of their new Motorola arm, they don't make or sell hardware. Everybody at work thinks I'm crazy, but I'm convinced they'll sell off a substantial portion of Motorola after they have time to separate the unwanted parts from the wanted parts (which I imagine could take a couple years).

I'm pretty skeptical that the mysterious Google device is related to SageTV. That just gave them 7 months to get oriented at Google, do the software development and get the hardware made. Seems a little too fast. Plus, the description of the device says it will study the use of wifi and bluetooth. That seems too slow to do TV streaming. Its presumably got to be media-related, I just think the odds probably aren't in favor of it being SageTV related. Hopefully we'll find out someday, but I imagine it won't be for at least 6-12 months.

[flavius]

Originally Posted by drewg

..All just wild speculation..

Some of it is.

I was once subjected to an acquisition, an employee of a 20+ company bought by a much larger one. We were spinning our wheels for about a year and a half. But it doesn't always go that way.
To assume that the new device in testing now is either capable of running SageTV or run by Sage is not a wild or outrageous speculation. They bought SageTV and Google is not IBM.
In six month, you can do a lot of things. I never worked with hardware, but six month is a lot of time, if you're agile and you know your turf (hardware) which Sage does.

What does that device do? If we think it runs Sage, it will record. Now that's where the wild part starts: what characteristics for this device would make sense in the market (and for Google)?

<insert your wish list here>

Google does have hobbies, actually lots of them and forging the Android 'ecosystem' would make sense. Just look at Apple, the most profitable company in the world.

If Google knew from the start what they were shooting for (hardware) and didn't intend to use SageTV for parts, six month don't seem such a tall order (there are not IBM). They could have sent the hardware orders to Taiwan a week after Jeff had his first day at Google, or the hardware was already there when he came in.

No, it is not outrageous at all to think that this new device will run Sage. And what else then TiVo would Google be competing with? Is there anything else?

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by flavius

And what else then TiVo would Google be competing with? Is there anything else?

Nope.. not until Ceton releases the Echo and Q... and Dish releases the Hopper... and then there's DirecTV's whole home solution... It is a viable market, and sage has the highest 'added value' of all the potential players.

There is a chance there will be some decisions on the AllVid front in the next year as well, so there lies the potential for a bunch more 'knock-off' solutions.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by emveepee

Okay thanks, I accept that success in meeting this goal as an achievement, even if it means nothing to the bottom-line as a consumer success.

Martin

I just wanted to point out that "success" is not the same thing as mass-market. Most of the best products in the world are decidedly not "mass market", the best remotes aren't mass market, the best audio processors, best video processors, the list goes on and on.

Achieving mass market penetration is only one form of success and, IMO, not necessarily the best for (a lot of mass market stuff is crap).

[SHS]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Nope.. not until Ceton releases the Echo and Q... and Dish releases the Hopper... and then there's DirecTV's whole home solution... It is a viable market, and sage has the highest 'added value' of all the potential players.

There is a chance there will be some decisions on the AllVid front in the next year as well, so there lies the potential for a bunch more 'knock-off' solutions.

Ceton the Echo and Q look very interesting just it to bad it not going to be very useful outside of cabletv market land
DirecTV's whole home solution Junk it, it to is useless to me
Dishnetwork Hopper look very interesting hope lee it better and support outside video other then that it to is useless to me

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I just wanted to point out that "success" is not the same thing as mass-market. Most of the best products in the world are decidedly not "mass market", the best remotes aren't mass market, the best audio processors, best video processors, the list goes on and on.

Achieving mass market penetration is only one form of success and, IMO, not necessarily the best for (a lot of mass market stuff is crap).

My point was the term success is used very loosely, it may not have made any money at all. I'm not saying that SageTV users don't consider the HD300 the best but I still maintain it is a niche item in an niche market. Most of the top 20 media players you wouldn't rate as successes either, the market is too fragmented. Logitech's GTV lost millions but probably more people love it then own an HDx00 - hardly a success.

Martin

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by emveepee

My point was the term success is used very loosely, it may not have made any money at all. I'm not saying that SageTV users don't consider the HD300 the best but I still maintain it is a niche item in an niche market.

Niche does not mean, not a success. Kaleidescape (ignoring their legal issues for the moment) is a very small niche, but I'd say they've been successful (enough to draw the wrath of the content industry).

I'd say URC, RTI, etc remotes are a niche but they are successful and some of the best remotes made.

PC DVRs in general are a niche, in fact they are a miniscule niche of the larger aftermarket DVR niche. SageTV was successful in that niche, thriving, continually improving and releasing new features/products right up until the time they drew the positive attention of Google.

Frankly a lot of the best, most successful products IMO are so because they are niche products. Becoming a mass market success just involves too many compromises to deal with the substantially lower level of care, attention, willingness to learn, and willingness to spend that the mass market commands.

I would imply that by your definition of success, you would include stuff like DLNA/UPnP support in TVs, because it's made it to mass market status, but IMO that is an abject failure. The functionality sucks and I bet most people don't even know it's there or what to do with it.

SageTV would not have been 1/10th the product it is if had been dumbed down enough to make it to mass market status.

I would be very surprised if SageTV didn't make money of each HDxxx they sold, they're not like a game console or something that you sell at a loss to bring in revenue from other sales, so I just don't see SageTV selling them at a loss.

Most of the top 20 media players you wouldn't rate as successes either, the market is too fragmented. Logitech's GTV lost millions but probably more people love it then own an HDx00 - hardly a success.

You seem to be combining a lot of products together that aren't really related. FWIW I basically consider the HDxxx's an abject failure if they were going after the media player, they rather sucked in standalone mode, but that wasn't their primary market. Likewise I wouldn't lump GTV in with stuff like the PCH or Dune, I'd say there's really three markets:

1) Media player - play media from local or LAN storage, stuff like the PCH, Dune, etc
2) Internet video player - play internet sources, eg Roku, GTV
3) Media Center/DVR extender - ie extend local TV, eg HDxxx, Xbox 360

There's definitely overlap, like the WDTV and the like that can do Netflix an local content.

But as far as SageTV HDxxx's go, they were by far the best extenders ever made, and most definitely a success as determined by them working very well and SageTV being able to sell more than they made/ordered.

[davephan]

Originally Posted by Qusix

I don't want to leave Sage. It truly is the best option but my extenders are dying.

My hd200 died when lighting struck a tree outside. One HD100 just died today. So now Im left with one hd100. I guess I'll be moving to Windows Media Center.

I blame Google.

Maybe you could use the Client trial version for 21 days. Then image the computer back to before the client and install the Client again. It would be a hassle to keep re-installing every 21 days, but maybe the install process could be automated. The trial Client could keep your system going until there is a viable replacement for SageTV. The lack of any news from Google/SageTV is not helpful.


Dave

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by davephan

Maybe you could use the Client trial version for 21 days. Then image the computer back to before the client and install the Client again. It would be a hassle to keep re-installing every 21 days, but maybe the install process could be automated. The trial Client could keep your system going until there is a viable replacement for SageTV. The lack of any news from Google/SageTV is not helpful.


Dave

Yeah, that's been discussed before.. the nice thing is, sage doesn't really require an 'install' to operate, so you could have a backed up folder on your sever, re-image back pre-first client run, and copy over the folder, and run it. A bit cumbersome, but worth it every 20 days to keep the option to expand the system, and keep sage alive and running until a comparable replacement/continueation comes about.

[OneThomas]

Well…. I’ve been using WMC7 for a couple weeks now, completely shutting down my SAGE service, and I have to say – it is doing a better job than I thought it would… And after finally giving up on the “but it is not SageTV” mentality I had – I am growing to really like it.

My configuration was my main PC as my SAGE server, 2 HDHR”s for OTA, and 2 Extenders (a HD100 and a HD300). No special plug-ins or comskip.

Now, I am still using the HDHR’s (same location/configuration), and still use my main PC to serve up my stored media (Music, Pix, Video, DVD’s). But, instead of the HD300 on my main TV, I bought a little Acer Revo running Windows 7 with Media Center and placed that in my entertainment cabinet. It is doing a great job at recording all my Television favorites, on the local internal hard drive. And it is serving up all my stored media via shares back to my main PC. It even somehow manages to lock in onto a problem station better then SAGE did (CBS 2.*)

I tried a new model Xbox 360 to replace the HD100 in the bedroom as a WMC7 extender. It does an okay job – but not enough for me to keep using it. I’ll end up getting another small form factor PC for that location. The 360 picture quality isn’t that great for some of the videos it has to transcode; it won’t play DVD formats, and doesn’t have a stop button (on the game controller or official “media” remote - totally ridiculous).

Having to use pc’s makes it a more expensive solution than the SAGE Extenders, and it was certainly more hassle to tweak rather than plugging in a dedicate extender device – but once I got through the tweaking pains (and bloatware removal from purchasing an off-the-shelf PC) – it is not so bad…. And, the little Revo is technically also a Server to some degree – if I keep it as the main recording unit.

I also NEVER wanted to have a PC in the entertainment cabinet before, and was resisting Windows 7 – but both were not as painful as I thought they would be either. I chalk that up to the cool little Revo unit – stow away keyboard/trackpad, smaller than my blu-ray player, built-in HDMI, and fanless – and Windows 7 is pretty impressive itself.

Some of the differences to digest:
1 – No TV Editorials (which clued me into some cool shows I might have otherwise missed)
2 – Not designed to be a true Server/Client model, but you can fake it to some degree
3 – Records in a new .WTV format. WIN7 has built in functionality to convert it do DVR.MS, but it still makes it harder to archive special recordings.
4 – Their “Movie” library (which will serve up disk based DVD structure) does not allow sorting based on Folder, so that leaves a gap if you don’t have rich meta data to sort by Genre or such. (I just had folder.jpg files and used folder structure for sorting, so I’m screwed there.)
5 – No “watched” status on shows, but it does keep a running history of recorded shows and activity on the local machine
6 – No built in online videos (like with Sage) or Weather – without installing plug-ins
7 – I do like the interactivity with your recorded shows. Rich metadata is loaded with a few pages of options and such
8 – It does have an upcoming movie screen which is kind of nice. Shows you the upcoming movies on the channels you have mapped.
9 – The Music, Video, and Pictures functionality is pretty nice. I never had any problems with the interfaces in Sage for this, but WMC7’s are a bit slicker
10 - the only thing I have noticed it won't play or inventory are the .FLV files from downloaded Youtube videos (but there is a plugin to fix this I think)

Microsoft now including an improved Media Center on all Windows 7 versions is really widening the audience for it, and there seems to be a lot of Development and talk about it on different web sites. You can get some pretty good plugins to tweak it to your liking and give it some of the built-in functionality that Sage had. Right now I am using the standard Media Center configuration – no plugins installed yet.

I’m not completely 100% sold yet – still have Sage ready to fire back up and switch the cables back over to the Extenders – especially if they announced a new and active non-Google-bastardized version tomorrow. But I am growing more accustomed to it and the differences between the two, and no longer hate it just because it is not SageTV.

That is just my take and 2 cents on it, in case anyone is interested…
Albeit probably distracted and disjointed because I am at work, LOL