Just in case- Alternatives to SageTV

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by graywolf

Hopefully you know what "version" the wiz.bin were created (most likely want from v7.1.7 thru 7.1.9 since they were compatible).

AFAIK any wiz.bin will work with 7.1.9, older ones are automatically updated.

Which brings up another reason to use the API, the wiz.bin format changes with different releases, so if you don't use the API you'd have to figure out the format for a multitude of different versions of Sage.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

So what in your decisions made WMC better than SageTV?

Better? That's crazy talk. I was talking about if I HAD to switch that would be my choice. There is now way that is going to happen if I can help it. The time and effort I've put into sagetv (not to mention how much I don't like WMC) is enough to keep me here until we see what Jeff and his new bosses come up with.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

Better? That's crazy talk. I was talking about if I HAD to switch that would be my choice. There is now way that is going to happen if I can help it. The time and effort I've put into sagetv (not to mention how much I don't like WMC) is enough to keep me here until we see what Jeff and his new bosses come up with.

That was my point... I see nothing that would make anyone move FROM sage at this point. I really don't see the doom on the horizon many here seem to see.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

That was my point... I see nothing that would make anyone move FROM sage at this point. I really don't see the doom on the horizon many here seem to see.

I just like to be prepared. As long as I get my guide data and something doesn't break metadata grabbing I'll be able to use sage forever. Expanding will take some effort, but not all that much. Trust me, I don't want to have to use WMC, but if something happened (not sure what could happen) I just want to be prepared.

I don't really see the doom either. I guess people are freaking out because they can't buy extenders (can't buy them for any other HTPC front end either). I don't know about the extenders because I never got to get one. I don't think I'd like them due to how lightning fast my client is. I just plan to make smaller, lower powered versions of it in the other locations I plan to add TV's very soon. And yes, they will all run sage. I'm even going to bet some colossus' to add to my new server (later this month). I wouldn't be planning a huge upgrade to sage if I thought I'd have to move to WMC.

I just hope we can keep this forum up. Anyone know if this is run on Jeff's personal server or a now google server? I have to think google would let him keep this up for as long as he wanted. The forum going down would suck pretty bad. That is quite a bit of lost information we wouldn't be able to get back. Luckily I haven't had any issues lately, but for plugin development the forums are a must.

[wayner]

Although I would like to continue using Sage forever we have to realize that we are, for the most part, in a stage of decay for Sage. Sure there are some developers that are brining new functionality to Sage, like with Phoenix and Ortus. But nobody new will be joining the Sage user group so it is very unlikely that we will be getting a lot of new development and the number of developers will decrease over time - which is already starting as some of the developers are leaving or are about to go (cncb who developed the Windows Sidebar Gadget is one example).

[joe123]

Originally Posted by stanger89

That and if they did just buy Sage to kill it, I doubt Jeff would be a Google employee, and I seriously doubt he'd be be so publicly happy about it.

You are joking, right?

Jeff will do WHATEVER Google tells him do to for the millions he will get.

Do you really think Jeff will turn down that nice beautiful home upgrade and new cars and be well taken care of for the rest of his life to apease Sage users or his staff?

Reality check.

[joe123]

Originally Posted by wayner

Although I would like to continue using Sage forever we have to realize that we are, for the most part, in a stage of decay for Sage.

The SAD reality is that SageTV went into decay mode the second Jeff accepted millions in exchange for the product.

Google is going to change SageTV as we know it today into something that will not be recognizable in the years to come.

Adios SageTV! Jeff is smiling all the way to the bank

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by joe123

The SAD reality is that SageTV went into decay mode the second Jeff accepted millions in exchange for the product.

Google is going to change SageTV as we know it today into something that will not be recognizable in the years to come.

Adios SageTV! Jeff is smiling all the way to the bank

I'm curious as to where you got your verifiable information.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by joe123

You are joking, right?

Jeff will do WHATEVER Google tells him do to for the millions he will get.

Do you really think Jeff will turn down that nice beautiful home upgrade and new cars and be well taken care of for the rest of his life to apease Sage users or his staff?

Reality check.

I'm mostly with stanger on this one.

Everyone has their price. If Google flashed a sufficiently large amount of money in front of Jeff, I agree he would probably do whatever Google would ask for.

But, I don't think this is one of those cases. Although, maybe our disagreement is on what is meant by "buying STV to bury it." I can't imagine Google would buy SageTV for the purposes of burying it. However, killing off SageTV might be the result of the purchase. I don't think Google would have seen SageTV as a competitor, but I also don't think that Google would see SageTV in its current form as particularly marketable.

I suspect Google bought SageTV hoping that Jeff, now a Google employee, will do something useful on the GoogleTV platform. There's probably a decent chance that nothing will come out of this, but that's different from buying SageTV to "bury it."

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by joe123

You are joking, right?

No I am not joking, I've had enough interactions with Jeff/SageTV over the years I think i have a reasonable understanding of at least the type of businessperson he is.

Jeff will do WHATEVER Google tells him do to for the millions he will get.

Do you really think Jeff will turn down that nice beautiful home upgrade and new cars and be well taken care of for the rest of his life to apease Sage users or his staff?

No I don't. What I do think is that if Jeff had been offered enough simply to kill SageTV, he wouldn't be stopping by the forum "flaunting" his good fortune (posting smiley-laden posts about how he feels about it. Were it the case that Google bought Sage simply to kill a competitor, I do not think:

• Jeff would be posting that he's happy about it.
• The forum would remain open.
• All existing users would be given a free V7 upgrade.
• Etc.

IMO this all suggests that Jeff didn't just sell us out, and that Google isn't seeking simply to crush a competitor. Yes, in business everyone has a price, but SageTV has been Jeff's baby for many years, and he's worked very closely with the community, and I think he's got enough class and has earned enough trust/respect that we can take him at his word that he accepted the deal because he thinks it will lead to something better.


Now all that said...

Originally Posted by joe123

Google is going to change SageTV as we know it today into something that will not be recognizable in the years to come.

I think it's "worse" than that actually, I think Google isn't even going to bother "changing" SageTV, I think SageTV is gone, and at best some of it's technology (DVR backend?) will be used in future Google endeavors.

I don't know how Jeff's knowledge, talents or technology will be used at Google, but yes, I don't think it will be SageTV Unicorn in the form of SageTV 7 plus everything we've ever wanted.

Originally Posted by reggie14

But, I don't think this is one of those cases. Although, maybe our disagreement is on what is meant by "buying STV to bury it." I can't imagine Google would buy SageTV for the purposes of burying it. However, killing off SageTV might be the result of the purchase. I don't think Google would have seen SageTV as a competitor, but I also don't think that Google would see SageTV in its current form as particularly marketable.

Yup, exactly. The only thing Sage was really a competitor to is other PC DVRs, and really at this point that's just Windows Media Center (as far as commercial competitors who might think of buying-to-bury). And Sage isn't even big enough to be a threat to them anyway.

I suspect Google bought SageTV hoping that Jeff, now a Google employee, will do something useful on the GoogleTV platform. There's probably a decent chance that nothing will come out of this, but that's different from buying SageTV to "bury it."

I don't know, I'd bet Google had a plan going in, something specific they wanted. Looking at some of the Google quotes I've seen floating around, it seems they have plans/interest on incorporating more "TV" functionality into GoogleTV. So I really do think the most likely situation is that Google wanted a robust DVR backend for Google TV.

I also think that if they had a good DVR solution with GoogleTV functionality, it would be something they could sell to OEMs (Echostar, Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, etc) to incorporate into their DVRs.

I'm very curious to see what all comes out of this, I just hope we know, ie at some point we will be allowed to hear from Jeff what's going on. Even though I have serious doubts it will be of use/interest to me personally.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I also think that if they had a good DVR solution with GoogleTV functionality, it would be something they could sell to OEMs (Echostar, Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, etc) to incorporate into their DVRs.

Logically I have to agree with this statement. But for some reason the box makers stick with their horrible UIs and if SA (now owned by Cisco) wanted to incorporate DVR or media streaming functionality then wouldn't they have started doing it years ago - after all they also own Linksys that was the maker of Windows MCE extenders.

That leaves me thinking that the cable companies do now want to make it easier for their customers to get other functionality in their cable STBs as it would be detrimental to their business model.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I don't know, I'd bet Google had a plan going in, something specific they wanted. Looking at some of the Google quotes I've seen floating around, it seems they have plans/interest on incorporating more "TV" functionality into GoogleTV. So I really do think the most likely situation is that Google wanted a robust DVR backend for Google TV.

I kind of doubt they have a plan- I suspect its more of an "idea." There are rumors that Google might try to buy TiVo, although I have no idea how accurate that is. If they make any efforts to buy TiVo then I really think this is more of a "let's throw money at the wall to see what sticks" situation.

While I don't claim to know much about Google, its my understanding that a fair number of people there work on things that never come to be, either because they can't get it working or because there isn't any interest in it.

That being said, a quick look at the list of Google's acquisitions on Wikipedia suggests that they usually do stuff with the companies they buy. So, that's probably a good sign. Although, I doubt they paid much for Sage, so it wouldn't be a big deal to Google if nothing comes out of the acquisition.

Originally Posted by stanger89

I also think that if they had a good DVR solution with GoogleTV functionality, it would be something they could sell to OEMs (Echostar, Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, etc) to incorporate into their DVRs.

While the OEMs are important middle-men, they probably need to market directly to cable/satellite providers to get a future DVR-capable GoogleTV into the mass market.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by reggie14

That being said, a quick look at the list of Google's acquisitions on Wikipedia suggests that they usually do stuff with the companies they buy. So, that's probably a good sign. Although, I doubt they paid much for Sage, so it wouldn't be a big deal to Google if nothing comes out of the acquisition.

If nothing comes of the sagetv acquisition they may make sage open source. That could be very good for us if developers jumped on the opportunity.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by panteragstk

If nothing comes of the sagetv acquisition they may make sage open source. That could be very good for us if developers jumped on the opportunity.

Here's hoping that is the case (fingers-crossed) and that they Open-Source the HD-300 firmware.

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

Favorites, Recording history, Watched, Don't like should all be uneffected.

Yes indeed I can get all of these from the web interface xml, and I can import what I can into NextPVR without issue. What I haven't seen in the samples so far are two things that NextPVR could really use

- Advanced Favourites to limit to day/hour
- the last-played position

The xml markup for these would be useful.

Martin

[valnar]

Originally Posted by emveepee

Yes indeed I can get all of these from the web interface xml, and I can import what I can into NextPVR without issue. What I haven't seen in the samples so far are two things that NextPVR could really use

- Advanced Favourites to limit to day/hour
- the last-played position

The xml markup for these would be useful.

Martin

I would like to thank you very much for looking into helping us lost Sage users. NextPVR is certainly at the top of my list once my Sage installation bites the dust. I hope you & Sub continue to integrate some of the functions us Sage users grew accustomed to. A single interface on a media player which incorporates TV shows and media is paramount. Things like a software client (Sage Client & Placeshifter) would be my second choice.

[panteragstk]

Originally Posted by wayner

Here's hoping that is the case (fingers-crossed) and that they Open-Source the HD-300 firmware.

I honestly hope that happens regardless of what google does with sagetv. Along with the core software of course.

[tmiranda]

Originally Posted by emveepee

Yes indeed I can get all of these from the web interface xml, and I can import what I can into NextPVR without issue. What I haven't seen in the samples so far are two things that NextPVR could really use

- Advanced Favourites to limit to day/hour
- the last-played position

The xml markup for these would be useful.

Martin

I don't think the developer of the web interface included that. The web interface either has to be updated or a custom piece of code has to be written. I can't help much with updating the web stuff but I can help with the custom code.

[BobPhoenix]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

I don't think the developer of the web interface included that. The web interface either has to be updated or a custom piece of code has to be written. I can't help much with updating the web stuff but I can help with the custom code.

Actually the timeslot appears in the XML but don't know about the "Day":

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?>
<!DOCTYPE sageShowInfo PUBLIC "-//NIELM//DTD SAGESHOWINFO XML 1.3//EN" "http://sageplugins.sourceforge.net/nielm_modules/sagexmlinfo/sageshowinfo_1_3.dtd">
<sageShowInfo version="1.3">
    <systemInfo>
        <alertLevel description="Status" level="0"/>
    </systemInfo>
    <channelList/>
    <favoriteList>
        <favorite favoriteId="7538287">
            <title>Rockford Files</title>
            <channelName>WOIDT2</channelName>
            <timeslot>12AM</timeslot>
            <firstRun/>
            <reRun/>
            <quality>Default</quality>
            <startPadding>120</startPadding>
            <stopPadding>120</stopPadding>
            <autoDelete/>
        </favorite>
    </favoriteList>
    <showList/>
    <systemMessageList/>
</sageShowInfo>

But I don't see watched status in this that Sage shows as 1/2 viewed:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?>
<!DOCTYPE sageShowInfo PUBLIC "-//NIELM//DTD SAGESHOWINFO XML 1.3//EN" "http://sageplugins.sourceforge.net/nielm_modules/sagexmlinfo/sageshowinfo_1_3.dtd">
<sageShowInfo version="1.3">
    <systemInfo>
        <alertLevel description="Status" level="0"/>
    </systemInfo>
    <channelList>
        <channel channelId="61967">
            <channelName>WOIDT2</channelName>
            <channelDescription>WOIDT2 (WOI-DT2) Des Moines-Ames</channelDescription>
            <channelNetwork>Independent</channelNetwork>
            <channelNumber>5-2</channelNumber>
        </channel>
    </channelList>
    <favoriteList/>
    <showList>
        <show epgId="SH0173090000">
            <title>Emergency!</title>
            <category>Drama</category>
            <subCategory>Medical</subCategory>
            <description>A team of paramedics responds to emergencies in Los Angeles.</description>
            <peopleList>
                <person role="Actor">Robert Fuller</person>
                <person role="Actor">Julie London</person>
                <person role="Actor">Bobby Troup</person>
                <person role="Actor">Kevin Tighe</person>
                <person role="Actor">Randolph Mantooth</person>
                <person role="Actor">Ron Pinkard</person>
                <person role="Executive_Producer">Jack Webb</person>
            </peopleList>
            <originalAirDate>1972-01-23T00:00:00.00Z</originalAirDate>
            <airing channelId="61967" duration="3600" sageDbId="8773815" startTime="2011-06-24T22:00:00.00Z">
                <manualRecord/>
                <recordSchedule duration="3600" startTime="2011-06-24T22:00:00.00Z"/>
                <mediafile duration="3840" sageDbId="8911956" startTime="2011-06-24T21:58:00.00Z" type="TV">
                    <segmentList>
                        <segment duration="3840" filePath="\\SageTVSrv\VideoSrv2$\Video\Emergency-8773815-0.mpg" startTime="2011-06-24T21:58:00.00Z"/>
                    </segmentList>
                </mediafile>
            </airing>
        </show>
    </showList>
    <systemMessageList/>
</sageShowInfo>

[emveepee]

Originally Posted by BobPhoenix

Actually the timeslot appears in the XML but don't know about the "Day":

That's all good information, if there's no date NextPVR can schedule any day in that time. Can you tell if that is local time? If it is that can be a nuisance when the time zone changes.

At this stage it looks like there is more then enough to get a preliminary NextPVR database, certainly enough to try it out, maybe ask questions and maybe provide sub with some Wishlist items, to ease any possible conversion. The good thing is there is no rush, (XP proves that obsolete programs can live a long time) to convert but it's good to starting preparing.

I was really impressed yesterday when I set up the SageTV server, and I can see why there are threads lamenting the passing. That being said I hope some of you provide feedback sooner rather than later. Sub is very receptive to new ideas and I think it's nice to have an option of supporting new users as well as what is now a closed circle of SageTV users. NextPVR while good now, will definitely keep getting better and better (unless google offers sub an offer he can't refuse too http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/imag...onbanghead.gif) who want more than that.

Martin