Considering HD300/SageTV Media Center - what PC?

[jerome8283]

Hi Guys,

I'm considering joining the club. I'm gathering requirements at this point.

I currently have a few PC's and wanted to know which would be the best for running SageTV Media Center. Please let me know if either of these will be sufficent...

1 -
System Model Dell Dimension 8400 Desktop
OS Name Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate
Processor Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz, 2992 Mhz, 1 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 3.00 GB
Total Virtual Memory 5.99 GB
Network Adapter Broadcom NetXtreme 57xx Gigabit Controller

2-
System Model Dell Latitude D620 Laptop
OS Name Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU T5500 @ 1.66GHz, 1667 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 1.00 GB
Total Virtual Memory 1.99 GB
Network Adapters Broadcom NetXtreme 57xx Gigabit Controller / Dell Wireless 1390 WLAN Mini-Card

3-
System Model Dell Latitude E4300 Laptop
OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P9600 @2.53GHz 2 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory 4,096.00 MB
Network Adapter Intel(R) 82567LM Gigabit

4-
System Model Dell Inspiron 1545 Laptop
OS Name Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8600 @ 2.40GHz, 2401 Mhz, 2 Core(s), 2 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 4.00 GB
Network Adapters Intel(R) WiFi Link 5100 AGN / Marvell Yukon 88E8040 PCI-E Fast Ethernet Controller

[tmiranda]

I'd suggest not using a laptop, it just does not have the expandability you may need. You'd also be dependent on USB capture devices which IMHO can be flaky, especially if you have a lot of them.

The Dimension is more than powerful enough, Sage is not very CPU intensive although some of the plugins are. One key thing you did not mention was storage, the more of that you have the better.

My only problem with most of the pre-built systems is the poor ventilation. Once you cram in a bunch of hard drives and tuners the heat really builds up in the case. I was using an old Dell as a server for a while and to keep it cool I had to take off the side cover and point a fan right inside the case. (Target has some really nice 5" fans for about $10.)

[Tiki]

It depends on exactly how you plan to use it. If you are just running Sage, and you are using an extender for playback, and your TV capture device has a hardware encoder, then any of those machines should work.

As pointed out above, laptops are pretty limited when it comes to storage and expandability. A desktop (or mid-tower) computer with some open PCIe slots and free bays for HDDs, plus maybe a DVD burner and/or BluRay player would be ideal.

If you want to hook the Sage computer up to a TV or monitor and use it for playback, you will need a decent video card. A little extra horsepower will also give you a better shot at success (I think a dual core or quad core CPU is a good idea). You didn't mention what sort of video capabilities your different options had.

If you want to use Comskip or Show Analyzer to detect and mark commercials, a faster processor will help a lot. If you are running these commercial detection programs against HD recordings it can really take a lot of processing power - a 2 or 4 core machine is highly recommended.

If you plan to use Placeshifter to watch videos recorded by Sage from across the internet, Sage will have to transcode the video for playback. A fast processor helps here too.

If you will be converting files to other formats (transcoding), a fast multi-core processor will speed the process and should keep the transcoding from interfering with Sage's normal operations.

Sage doesn't need a whole lot of memory, especially if you are playing everything back through an extender. For a system running a 32-bit OS, 2GB is probably fine. For a 64-bit OS, you may want a little more, but 4GB should be more than enough.

[davephan]

There are so many things to consider. First, how much is the budget? if the budget is high enough, then you could start with a quad core, 3 gig or close to 3 gig. The fast quad core will be needed if you Comskip files or compress video. How much storage will you need? Does the storage need to be redundant? If so, what method are you going to use? If it isn't redundant, then you could have file loss if a drive fails, which is OK if you can accept the risk.

I also think a laptop is a bad choice for SageTV. I prefer using a larger case to hold more drives. 1 gig RAM is too marginal. Use 4 gig RAM instead. Windows XP would be fine. If you build a system yourself, you can select a system board that has a high drive count and high USB port count. A high PCI/PCIe slot count might also be important consideration. Some system boards have built-in RAID.

Do you plan to setup SageTV for HD? What is your source? Over the air, cable, or satellite? How many tuners do you plan to include? You can start with one and expand over time later.

Dave

[jerome8283]

Thanks guys.

I would like to eventually use Comskip or Show Analyzer and maybe convert files to other formats (not sure yet on this one).

I guess my options are using an extender for playback and a TV capture device or hook the Sage computer to a plasma TV?

I don’t own any Blu-Ray movies since my current setup is only capable of displaying 1080i. I will mostly watch online TV content, including HD.

Would a USB connected Western Digital storage device work or do you suggest internal HDD only?

My source is cable.

I have not thought about HD redundancy at this point.

I wanted to keep the cost down but knowing myself I would probably end up spending more once I get familiar with Sage and understand my options.

[EnterNoEscape]

That might work for only one tuner, but the throughput limitations of USB make an internal hard drive, NAS or ESATA connected hard drive the best approaches. Esspecially when you run live/post tasks like Comskip and transcode your recordings.

[davephan]

You have several options with cable TV for tuners, depending on if clearQAM exists on your cable system. However, if clearQAM exists now, it may go away in the future, forcing you to change your tuners, if you are dependent on clearQAM. One option, to record cable TV without clearQAM is with a HD cable box and a HD-PVR. There are several tuner choices for analog cable TV. If your cable provider offers a DTA box, that works too, although the quality will be lower than using a SD or HD cable box.

You might want to setup your system so that you can easily change from cable to satellite, so you can switch between providers every couple of years for the best prices.

Dave

[jerome8283]

Looks like the right way to go is to build a pc or buy a new one. I have an old pc I built a few years ago, maybe I can use this case and replace the guts.

Dave, I'd like to move away from my cable company.

Thanks all. Any suggestion on components for a PC build would be appreciated!

[mitchedo]

I just put a server together yesterday. I limited myself to motherboards that would support DDR2, because I was pinching pennies and wanted to use 4 of the 6 GB in my office desktop.

My office desktop is running an AMD 690G chipset with (at the time) 6 GB RAM and Windoze 7. It has a dual-core Athlon 64 x2 running 2 cores at 2800 MHz each. This was the machine I trialed SageTV 7 on. I could not get full-screen HD video to not be jerky using a single HDHomerun. Task Monitor showed ~80% CPU usage, so I don't know what the issue was.

See the specs for my new server below. I just cobbled it together last night, but initial testing shows ~25% CPU usage without any jerkiness viewing OTA HD via the HDHomerun.

I plan on trying to use my server to watch TV with, so I went with the quad core. I also would like to use Comskip, and probably a Placeshifter. I also want to use the very cool Hulu Desktop from the server.

I think I'm going to need more storage for DVD and Blu-Ray rips, but my wallet is beyond empty, so a NAS will have to wait.

YMMV, and I'm a noob, but it seems a quad-core is necessary for all I want to do with my server.

I used an Antec 600 case ( http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-079-_-Product ). It has space for 6 hard drives, with 2 120mm fans blowing over them. There's a huge fan on top, and another 120mm fan in the back. I like to keep my hard drives cool. Each of the fans in the case has a switch to slow the speed. I have all 4 fans running on their slowest speed, and it's nice and cool in the case. ...and it's quiet. I gotta tape over the stupid blue LED's before I go blind.

[jerome8283]

Thanks Mitch.

When I think about all of this it reminds me why I did not go with SageTV initially. I looked at SageTv a year or two ago. It seems to take advantage of the capabilities of Sage one needs a lot more than advertised. I respect the product and have read many good things about it but I believe many would not want to go to these lengths to achieve a working solution.

I'm on the fence now. I see the benefit but does it make sense? Not sure yet.

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by jerome8283

Looks like the right way to go is to build a pc or buy a new one. I have an old pc I built a few years ago, maybe I can use this case and replace the guts.

Dave, I'd like to move away from my cable company.

Thanks all. Any suggestion on components for a PC build would be appreciated!

Of course, if you just have those 4 PCs sitting around collecting dust, you could always give one a try and see how it works for you. Worst case is you won't be happy with its performance and will have to upgrade.

[tchapin]

And don't forget that Sage has a free trial period, so you really don't have anything to lose.

SageTV, like many many things, can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make it. Like Tennis. You can start out with a relatively cheap racket and the sneakers you already had, but you can also get the super fancy stuff and all the accessories if you want. You can still enjoy the game and play just as well (or almost) at any level.

I started out with a fairly simple setup. I had an older, single-core server that I had just been using as a file server, bought an SD capture PCI card (which I still use), 3 MVPs, and went to town. I just had 2 hard drives (1 for the OS, 1 for everything else). I installed comskip. And that was it. And it worked fine and we were really happy with Sage. But then we wanted more features and I did some upgrades.

Since then, I've upgraded my server to a faster dual core machine. I use a number of other plugins. I transcode videos for my phone. I put in a RAID array and have some USB drives for backups. I put in a separate drive for my recordings and "scratch" disk space.

So, I say to give it a go. Work with what you have. Think about the things that you may want down the line, but that doesn't mean you have to jump in to everything all at once.

To start, any of the machines that you have would probably be fine. But, if you want to choose the machine that will give you the most longevity, I'd choose option #4 if you don't need it for anything else.

Good luck.

[snipeman]

I used to run my server on a P4 3.2 Ghz system and ran into trouble with Comskip eventually. The system would bog down when I wanted to watch something and it was comskipping at the same time.

I really like the idea of working with what you have though. It is so easy to throw a lot of money at tech, more interesting to creatively use what you've got.

So how about this as an idea: Use system #1, the Dell tower as a server you don't watch TV on. Don't run comskip on it, run comskip on one of the laptops instead. This will offload some of your processing power demands. And since the laptops are slower and you'll also be limited by network connections, I don't think this will hammer your hard drive access either.

Check out Dirmon software to run on a laptop. It will monitor the SageTV recordings directory and when a new recording appears launch the comskip process on it.

The only downside to this is you'll have to keep a laptop running most if not all of the time, but they don't use much juice.

Eventually I phased out my P4 server but I was patient. I waited until I wanted to upgrade my main desktop system anyway, then used those guts to replace the P4 (check signature). I'll do that again in a few years, but the Q6600 I stuck in there is doing great for now.

The main thing I regret ever fooling with in this whole grand experiment was HTPC clients. I know there are "discussions" out there as to which is best and why and I don't want to inject myself into those. I'll just say for me the HD200 and a Bluray player was 100% the way to go. The wife factor is perfect with a Harmony remote, no updates to do, and no drivers to fuss with. I'm sorry I ever fought HTPC clients and I won't do it again.

Even though I didn't need it immediately I did pre-order an HD300 which I'll put on my main TV viewing area. I'll take the HD200 from there and use it to make my server headless.

I echo the point you can do the free trial as well. Use system #1 and don't run comskip or view TV on it and you should be fine.

[jerome8283]

Thanks guys for all your input. I appreciate it!

I don't have experience with TV tuner cards. To accomplish watching and recording live SD & HD would I require two separate cards? I saw the Hauppauge HD PVR model 01212 but it appears to work with only one HD channel . My wife typically records two channels at once and is required to watch one of them. Is there a card available with this capability? If I go with a new PC I will have PCI slots so could go with an internal card.

[jerome8283]

Originally Posted by jerome8283

Thanks guys for all your input. I appreciate it!

I don't have experience with TV tuner cards. To accomplish watching and recording live SD & HD would I require two separate cards? I saw the Hauppauge HD PVR model 01212 but it appears to work with only one HD channel . My wife typically records two channels at once and is required to watch one of them. Is there a card available with this capability? If I go with a new PC I will have PCI slots so could go with an internal card.

I believe a have my answer. Hauppauge 1250, 1600 or 1850?

[snipeman]

Depends on the slots on your motherboard. I ran a 1600 (PCI) in my old system until I upgraded the motherboard, then I moved to the 2250 (PCI-E)

If you have PCI Express slot and could do the 1250 or 1850 there is no reason not to just go for the 2250. It does analog or digital on either tuner and can do both at once.

The 2250 performs flawlessly for me. The 1600 had poor analog recording quality.

I hate to give you more research but you might want to study clear QAM issues if you don't know about it already. You did say your source was cable. If your cable company doesn't broadcast clear QAM on the network channels you don't really want any of these cards. I run an antenna and record ATSC on both inputs of my 2250. (No monthly fees!)

If your cable company doesn't broadcast clear QAM channels you'll need an HD PVR connected to the cable companies set top box. If you want two recordings at the same time, I think you'll need two set top boxes and two HD PVRs.

[Fuzzy]

Originally Posted by snipeman

Depends on the slots on your motherboard. I ran a 1600 (PCI) in my old system until I upgraded the motherboard, then I moved to the 2250 (PCI-E)

If you have PCI Express slot and could do the 1250 or 1850 there is no reason not to just go for the 2250. It does analog or digital on either tuner and can do both at once.

The 2250 performs flawlessly for me. The 1600 had poor analog recording quality.

I hate to give you more research but you might want to study clear QAM issues if you don't know about it already. You did say your source was cable. If your cable company doesn't broadcast clear QAM on the network channels you don't really want any of these cards. I run an antenna and record ATSC on both inputs of my 2250. (No monthly fees!)

If your cable company doesn't broadcast clear QAM channels you'll need an HD PVR connected to the cable companies set top box. If you want two recordings at the same time, I think you'll need two set top boxes and two HD PVRs.

I think a good starter situation would be a single HVR-2250 card. Hooked up to an antenna for local ATSC using the tuners, and then you can use the S-video inputs for a cable box or two. You'll still only be able to record two things at a time, but those two things can be both OTA, both Cable, or one of each. Very versatile. Cable will be SD only, but we're talking starters here.

The recordings will also all be MPEG2 in this setup, meaning comskip will run fine on any of those systems you mentioned (MPEG2 is MUCH easier to analyse than the MPEG4/H.264 video the HD-PVR spits out).

Oh.. and you'll also need a way to control the STBs. Personally, I think the most versatile is the USB-UIRT. It will work great at controlling pretty much any STB out there (can actually control up to 3 with the addition of a couple external IR emitters).

[jerome8283]

Originally Posted by snipeman

Depends on the slots on your motherboard. I ran a 1600 (PCI) in my old system until I upgraded the motherboard, then I moved to the 2250 (PCI-E)

If you have PCI Express slot and could do the 1250 or 1850 there is no reason not to just go for the 2250. It does analog or digital on either tuner and can do both at once.

The 2250 performs flawlessly for me. The 1600 had poor analog recording quality.

I hate to give you more research but you might want to study clear QAM issues if you don't know about it already. You did say your source was cable. If your cable company doesn't broadcast clear QAM on the network channels you don't really want any of these cards. I run an antenna and record ATSC on both inputs of my 2250. (No monthly fees!)

If your cable company doesn't broadcast clear QAM channels you'll need an HD PVR connected to the cable companies set top box. If you want two recordings at the same time, I think you'll need two set top boxes and two HD PVRs.

I do have a PCI Express slot. Research is a good think!

[Tiki]

Originally Posted by jerome8283

I believe a have my answer. Hauppauge 1250, 1600 or 1850?

I would stay away from the 1250, since it has a software encoder. You definitely want a hardware encoder.

Here is a comparison of the various HVR cards on Hauppauge's website.

[snipeman]

Yes, go with a 2250 all the way if you do an internal card. The price differences are minor and your tuner is important.

I think you need to find out about the clear QAM though. Personally I wouldn't be setting up any SD recording at this point. To me it is about like using a modem for the internet. Once you've been in the HD world long enough, you can't go back.

Starting a new system with a budget shouldn't mean giving up on HD or the whole thing seems somewhat pointless to me.

If you have clear QAM I'd buy a 2250, a HD300 and an antenna, then try using your existing stuff to make it all work. If you like the system add one HD PVR/USB-UIRT later once you are up and running smoothly.