CableCard Open to non-Microsoft MediaCenter

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by cat6man

question: the sigmadesign chipsets contain the DRM needed for playback, as i understand it.

would it be possible for Sage to be able, without complex DRM constraints - or something on the simple side - , to record DRMd material and only permit DRMd playback via an extender where dedicated sigma h/w can handle the DRM?

It's probably possible, however a lot of the drm'd recordings will only play back on the device that recorded it. I have this problem with my Tivo HD box. I can't watch most digital content on my PC tivo client.

[graywolf]

Originally Posted by doncote0

I even heard that some premium channels were "unrecordable" using a VCR.

For those that don't know what a VCR is...you really aren't missing much. (Recycle the shelfware!)

Hmmm. Never encounter that. But then again, I have/had the VCR after the satellite box.

Actually still have VCR in the BR (no HD200s in stock). But then again, rarely have any of MY stuff on the VCR. Just mainly some news shows the wife likes to "skim" thru

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by barney B.A.

They were unrecordable because they were scrambled channels in which case you couldn't see them on screen either. You either needed a cable box or the cable co. had to come out and hook inline filters to make the channels viewable, then charged you accordingly. If you couldn't record from another vcr then why would you be able to record from DVD. laserdisc, etc?

He's not talking about "scrambled" channels but is most likely talking about macrovision copy protections.

[toricred]

All Sage users do have a dog in the hunt. How do you think Sage will pay for the cost of certification? They'll have to pass some of it on to the customers. Do you really think they'll fragment their product by making a CC compliant version at one price and a non-CC compliant version at a lower price? There's no way they would do it. All users would also have to put up with whatever DRM scheme they're forced to implement.

If they can come up with a way to support CC without raising the price, without implementing DRM, and without costing development effort on other projects relevant to all Sage users then I have no problem with it. I just don't see how they can accomplish even two of those objectives.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by doncote0

From what I can gather, an easier option is possible:

Allow "copy freely" only. Firmware update on CC devices could allow all copy freely recording to occur without DRM. This is the simplest and easiest solution for all. The FCC even implied that this solution is what they would like to see. Why use DRM if the channel can be recorded under "Fair Use" copyright rules? In other words, if you can copy it with a VCR, DRM is not appropriate.

This is what is getting very, very confusing in this whole "CableCard" discussion. Some people mean full, real CableCard support some mean partial support.

What you describe above is (IMO) basically a given that it will happen. CableLabs already changed their agreement to allow CopyFreely content to be recorded without DRM in apps that aren't certified. I have little doubt Sage will allow use of a Ceton or especially an HDHR Prime for CopyFreely content (and no issue with it if they do).

The issue arises with the desire for "real" CableCard support, ie CableLabs cert, DRM incorporation and all the associated costs.

[QUOTE]No play ready bs required for Sage.[QUOTE]

That's the problem, IMO, people are going to be very, very disappointed with what they actually end up getting without DRM.

Possibility:

Cable companies may respond by marking all channels except locals to prevent that.

That's my expectation.

Lawsuits on "fair use" will follow. In the end, the individual broadcasting companies themselves may be held responsible for marking their programming.

A good question does come to mind though...if more and more the future seems to lean towards DRM, wouldn't it be wise to plan for that? Bandage solutions will work for now, but the future brings more and more DRM.

Maybe, the future is also moving away from linear broadcasts towards VOD and streaming. I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to invest a lot in CableCard development today when "TV" is on the way out.

Originally Posted by doncote0

True...for now...

(Remember the macrovision update to VCR's?)

Easily remedied with a simple accessory

Originally Posted by cat6man

question: the sigmadesign chipsets contain the DRM needed for playback, as i understand it.

would it be possible for Sage to be able, without complex DRM constraints - or something on the simple side - , to record DRMd material and only permit DRMd playback via an extender where dedicated sigma h/w can handle the DRM?

Lots of possibilities open up if you're willing to sacrifice your whole system's integration.

[goatboy22382]

Since I only have one copy protected channel I will settle for only copy freely channels being supported.

This whole idea that Sage should not invest in cabelcard because it might cost you something in the future is ridiculous. Do not upgrade if you do not want it.

[src666]

For everyone who is thinking that an HDPVR or other component sourced recording device is the answer, you should realize that the FCC is about to allow the media companies to (finally) activate SOC (Selective Output Control). They will initially be doing this on PPV pre-DVD release movies (i.e. you can rent it from your service provider while it's still in the theater.

In case you aren't aware, SOC means that they will be able to _disable_ analog outputs, including Component outputs. All the hardware made in the past 10 years supports this, so chances are you won't be able to say "boo" when they do it.

And since everyone is doom-and-gloom about ever-expanding DRM, I guess we have to expect this to creep into more situations as well.

Face it, there aren't any perfect solutions at the moment, and there aren't any on the horizon.

And if you think that Sage can't sell CableCard capability as an add-on, then you underestimate the market.

[Clift]

Originally Posted by src666

For everyone who is thinking that an HDPVR or other component sourced recording device is the answer, you should realize that the FCC is about to allow the media companies to (finally) activate SOC (Selective Output Control). They will initially be doing this on PPV pre-DVD release movies (i.e. you can rent it from your service provider while it's still in the theater.

In case you aren't aware, SOC means that they will be able to _disable_ analog outputs, including Component outputs. All the hardware made in the past 10 years supports this, so chances are you won't be able to say "boo" when they do it.

And since everyone is doom-and-gloom about ever-expanding DRM, I guess we have to expect this to creep into more situations as well.

Face it, there aren't any perfect solutions at the moment, and there aren't any on the horizon.

And if you think that Sage can't sell CableCard capability as an add-on, then you underestimate the market.

Not quite 100% accurate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectable_output_control

[bcjenkins]

There is always this too.

B

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by bcjenkins

There is always this too.

B

Yup, SOC is easily remedied. And frankly, by the time SOC becomes an issue, we'll scarcely need to record "TV" anymore. Lots of people have already dropped Cable and Satellite in favor of Hulu, Netflix, and other VOD services (Apple TV, Zune Marketplace, etc).

If Dish ever turns off my component, that may be the end of Dish for me, oh, well I've still got the R5000

[Naylia]

Originally Posted by toricred

All users would also have to put up with whatever DRM scheme they're forced to implement.

Unlikely - DRM is usually applied to specific content. Supporting the playback of DRM'd content does not mean that Sage is suddenly going to start wrapping all of your HD PVR recordings in DRM. Especially when that DRM is applied inside the tv tuner, and not by the 3rd party software application.

Originally Posted by toricred

and without costing development effort on other projects relevant to all Sage users then I have no problem with it.

Name one single new feature or improvement to existing capability that is relevant to ALL SageTV users. The discussion should be about priorities. Don't just throw out a blanket statement that a specific feature should not be pursued because it doesn't apply to ALL users. Any feature you pick, there is a group of people here who very much see it as their top priority, and there is a group of people who see it as a bottom priority.

For instance some of my feature priorities:
1) The ability to easily enable Blu-ray playback - right now there are issues with some video types and some audio types
2) Full CableCard Support
3) Well...that's about it for right now - v7 Beta kind of fixed all my other concerns

[barney B.A.]

Originally Posted by ke6guj

He's not talking about "scrambled" channels but is most likely talking about macrovision copy protections.

Exactly, which is what you encounter with vcr to vcr or dvd to vcr dubbing

recording from cable afaik has always been possible with vcr

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Naylia

Unlikely - DRM is usually applied to specific content. Supporting the playback of DRM'd content does not mean that Sage is suddenly going to start wrapping all of your HD PVR recordings in DRM. Especially when that DRM is applied inside the tv tuner, and not by the 3rd party software application.

That's the theory, WMC users can tell you how well that works. I'm still at a loss for why WMC obeys the broadcast flag on OTA content. Or why they support CGMS-A.

Name one single new feature or improvement to existing capability that is relevant to ALL SageTV users. The discussion should be about priorities. Don't just throw out a blanket statement that a specific feature should not be pursued because it doesn't apply to ALL users. Any feature you pick, there is a group of people here who very much see it as their top priority, and there is a group of people who see it as a bottom priority.

Personally, prognosticating about the future, I think there's a much bigger, more "stable" long term market in the world of media players and internet video than supporting recording of linear TV from major providers. To put it another way, I think there's are much bigger more long term opportunities in getting content onto "normal" TVs than getting TV into PCs.

[Naylia]

Yeah, but there's already every player imaginable in that space. Everyone wants to be the all in one media box. But since the cable/sat companies tend to do things poorly, Sage sits in a niche where they have the ability to truly integrate the two types of services and do it better than other providers in the market and deliver a whole house ecosystem of easy to access content from more sources than anyone else.