CableCard Open to non-Microsoft MediaCenter

[Brent]

Big news on CableCard today.
CableLabs just approved a change to allow non-Microsoft MediaCenter HTPCs to use CableCard. The caveat is this: Only for copy freely-marked channels.

More here:
theDigitalMediaZone
GeekTonic

This doesn't mean you can take a Ceton CableCard and use it with SageTV or MythTV today. But it does mean you likely will be able to after a firmware update from them and some work from the SageTV team. And it means that SiliconDust HDHR Prime tuner coming later this year might work with SageTV also.

Great news despite the caveat!

[PLUCKYHD]

When you live in a city like i do and majority do that flags everything but locals with drm it is no news. I don't see this benefiting Many people at all and would advise you find out for sure what your cable company flags before getting excited. And don't trust the service rep speak to a high level tech or test yourself.

[darcilicious]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

would advise you find out for sure what your cable company flags before getting excited. And don't trust the service rep speak to a high level tech or test yourself.

Not only that, but it can change, and only for the worse.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by PLUCKYHD

When you live in a city like i do and majority do that flags everything but locals with drm it is no news. I don't see this benefiting Many people at all and would advise you find out for sure what your cable company flags before getting excited. And don't trust the service rep speak to a high level tech or test yourself.

Originally Posted by darcilicious

Not only that, but it can change, and only for the worse.

Both true statements to a degree.

But I know with Comcast and even with some TWC markets most channels are open. The difficulty will be in knowing what channels where.

[ruwackd]

I just checked using my Tivo and Tivo desktop since it will only allow you to transfer "copy freely" flagged programming and I was successful at transferring all recordings I attempted. I currently have Verizon FIOS in NorthernVA. Channels I tested are listed below. I know that this can change but no more risky than using QAM was when basic cable was unencrypted. I really hope that Sage adds support for this. If nothing else, there is little premium over buying it for QAM channels than a regular HDHomerun.

Showtime
Showtime HD
The Movie Channel
The Movie Channel HD
SyFYHD
USA
TNTHD
Encore

[stanger89]

So, CableLabs does the logical thing and decides not to lock down not locked down content?

Well I guess given Cable Labs' history that is big news, logic coming of CL.

[kingwr]

http://thedigitalmediazone.com/2010/...-free-content/

It seems to me that SageTV would still have to read and respect the copy flags, which would mean DRM in SageTV, right? And since SageTV has always seemed to say "No" to DRM, then I don't see how this changes anything.

[src666]

Originally Posted by kingwr

http://thedigitalmediazone.com/2010/...-free-content/

It seems to me that SageTV would still have to read and respect the copy flags, which would mean DRM in SageTV, right? And since SageTV has always seemed to say "No" to DRM, then I don't see how this changes anything.

If you read the article and the comments above, you would have seen that it says "No DRM on 'Copy-Freely' flagged shows".

Still doesn't let Sage/whatever record copy-restricted shows, but does open up the possibility of using a CableCard tuner in places where ClearQAM is going away.

[kmp14]

Looks like cable labs will be approving opening things up so that we can get all of our cable channels with something like the Ceton tuner

Please SageTV team, make this happen as soon as is possible!

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/08/15/ca...mythtv-are-on/

* merged; please search before posting *

[wayner]

It has been a reality for over two years with the HD-PVR but you are unlikely to get all of your cable channels in Sage with a CableCard tuner unless they implement DRM in Sage.

[kingwr]

Thanks for the instruction, but I did read the article and the posts.

However, what is deciding that a show is "copy-freely?" My understanding is that a cable-card device, like the Ceton card, only allows the decryption of digital content. It is not the Ceton card that enforces DRM on shows, but Microsoft Media Center that gets the flag from the content and decides what can and cannot be done. Is this not correct? If SageTV doesn't read and respect such flags, then how does it know what content is "copy-freely" and what content is copy-restricted content?

[kmp14]

Originally Posted by wayner

It has been a reality for over two years with the HD-PVR but you are unlikely to get all of your cable channels in Sage with a CableCard tuner unless they implement DRM in Sage.

For me, the only channels that are not "Copy Freely" are the premiums, like HBO, which I don't have. So for me, if this comes to reality, I will get a Ceton and have 4 tuners with all the cable content I have in SageTV.

The HD-PVR is not something I want to try. Costs a lot for 1 tuner, stability issues, Analog to Digital conversion (got to be some quality loss), still have to pay the CableCo for the box, etc. I thought about giving it a try, but it was just not for me.

[wayner]

But you never know if/when the cable company will change that and the only channels you will be able to record are your local OTA channels. I have had two HD-PVRs for over two years with no issues and as long as the component outputs are not shut off then I am guaranteed to get every cable channel.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by kingwr

However, what is deciding that a show is "copy-freely?"

The whim of the content owner, and/or the cable company.

My understanding is that a cable-card device, like the Ceton card, only allows the decryption of digital content. It is not the Ceton card that enforces DRM on shows, but Microsoft Media Center that gets the flag from the content and decides what can and cannot be done. Is this not correct?

Not really. Yes CC tuners to decrypt digital cable via their Cable Card. But they also perform a handshake with the host PC, basically to get the info needed to lock content to that machine. Originally ATI devices encrypted everything all the time, regardless of the copy flags in the stream. That has since been loosened (firmware update) to where today, CC tuners only encrypt/protect content that needs it (content not Copy Freely).

That's important to realize, CC tuners have the DRM wrapper built in, and they apply DRM to the stream before it ever leaves the tuner. If the content is marked Copy Once, the CC tuner wraps it WMDRM and sends that wrapped stream to the host PC.

What you're thinking of is OTA where WMC honors the same flags from a standard tuner, and then applies it's own DRM after the fact. This isn't the case with CableCard.

[Brent]

Okay, lots of you are bringing me back to reality a little here I admit. But this is a definite improvement and step in the right direction don't you think?

Consider the SiliconDust HDHR Prime tuner that's coming later this year for instance. If it has QAM tuning AND CableCard built-in that would be a very nice tuner to own in terms of flexibility.

And there are some cable outlets that have many channels copy freely. Cox in some places such as the Northwest and Fios are two examples.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Brent

Okay, lots of you are bringing me back to reality a little here I admit. But this is a definite improvement and step in the right direction don't you think?

No more so than Firewire recording IMO. It should theoretically obey the same rules (stuff marked copy freely = no DRM, etc), but it's all but worthless to most people.

I'm definitely jaded, but I think I've earned it at this point. Everyone always gets excited about anything that will allow recording of non-"clear" content, and we're always disappointed.

The only solutions that ever actually work in this system (NA Cable/Satellite) are the ones that aren't officially supported (R5000, HD PVR, etc).

Consider the SiliconDust HDHR Prime tuner that's coming later this year for instance. If it has QAM tuning AND CableCard built-in that would be a very nice tuner to own in terms of flexibility.

Every CC tuner is like that. The SD isn't anything special IMO, at least not on the CableCard front, let me rephrase more accurately, SD isn't bringing anything new to the CableCard table IMO.

And there are some cable outlets that have many channels copy freely. Cox in some places such as the Northwest and Fios are two examples.

And there are some cable outlets that leave everything but the premiums unencrypted.

[kingwr]

Originally Posted by stanger89

. . . they also perform a handshake with the host PC, basically to get the info needed to lock content to that machine. . . .CC tuners have the DRM wrapper built in, and they apply DRM to the stream before it ever leaves the tuner. If the content is marked Copy Once, the CC tuner wraps it WMDRM and sends that wrapped stream to the host PC.

So getting SageTV to support cable-card devices, such as Ceton, would just require an update to the drivers for the device to allow streams of copy-freely content to be utilized by applications without the DRM handshake, and thus SageTV would not have to implement any DRM? If so, support for such devices by SageTV sounds like a no-brainer, but Ceton would have to modify the structure of the drivers to allow non CableLabs certified 3rd Party applications to work with their device.

[matt91]

I hope that Silicon has a "report back" system like they do now for the HDHR where devices, when idle, send back a report containing the list of channels that they are able to tune. I'd like to see some confirmation that others (on Comcast and local to me) get more than just the locals.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by kingwr

So getting SageTV to support cable-card devices, such as Ceton, would just require an update to the drivers for the device to allow streams of copy-freely content to be utilized by applications without the DRM handshake, and thus SageTV would not have to implement any DRM? If so, support for such devices by SageTV sounds like a no-brainer, but Ceton would have to modify the structure of the drivers to allow non CableLabs certified 3rd Party applications to work with their device.

Thats correct.

I'd personally still like to see SageTV implement true CableCard support to pick up all channels. Doing so wouldn't "add DRM" to SageTV for other purposes - just for CableCard.

[PLUCKYHD]

Yeah I with stranger on this it really does nothing for most users. Cox the at the first of this year here made all but locals drm. Without native support and drm it will be useless. Or they make cable providers honor the content providers flags and not let the cable company set as they wish like they do Now. Ha that made me laugh. WTF cable companies can set their own flags is beyond me it should be up to the content provider.