HD200 freezes during live TV

[mschauer]

I'm having a rather annoying problem that technical support hasn't offered any solution or suggestions for. I can't believe I'm the only one having the problem so I thought I'd ask here in the hope someone else has experience with the problem and can offer a solution.

I started using SageTV + HD200 a few weeks ago. From the start I have had trouble with live TV. I experience frequent "freezes" that usually last 1-3 seconds. When playback resumes it fast forwards so that time wise it is where it would be if the freeze hadn't occurred. This might happen 4 times within 30 mins. It seems to happen more frequently soon after starting live TV and seems to get less frequent as I watch but still happens.

Occasionally the freeze becomes a lock up, the video never resumes. It doesn't seem to be a total lock up though; if I press Select on the remote the busy cursor comes up and continually spins. When it gets like this I have to cycle the power on the HD200. I don't have to stop and restart the server though.

I tried updating to STV7 (with the HD200 f/w update) and it didn't help.

I never have the problem at any other time. I can watch a recorded program or video streamed from the net with no problem.

This is a very disappointing problem. I just about had other family members convinced to dump cable tv and use OTA or clear QAM + SageTV but now I've had to tell them to hold off.

My tuner is a Hauppauge 2250 and I'm using a wired network with cat 5e cable.

Thanks in advance for any help,

Medora

[Warren Lockhart]

I'm looking for ways to stream from the internet to my tv. SageTV looks really interesting but your problem has me concerned. Are you still having the problem?

[mschauer]

Yes I am. I sent logs to technical support almost 2 weeks ago (on Jun 6) and haven't heard a thing. I sent a "What's going on" query and never got a reply. Sent another and finally got reply from an apparent middle man that just said he had sent the logs on to whoever. Very disappointing. Technical support at Sage appears to be of the "black hole" nature.

I'm having other problems as well but I there doesn't seem to be any point in trying to get help from technical support. I strongly suggest you wait until later in the year when the Boxee Box and Google TV are expected to be released. They appear to be more sophisticated solutions and hopefully will have something more than pretend technical support.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I started using SageTV + HD200 a few weeks ago. From the start I have had trouble with live TV. I experience frequent "freezes" that usually last 1-3 seconds. When playback resumes it fast forwards so that time wise it is where it would be if the freeze hadn't occurred. This might happen 4 times within 30 mins. It seems to happen more frequently soon after starting live TV and seems to get less frequent as I watch but still happens. Medora

I suspect your network connection is not up to par or there's some memory issue with your SageTV server. You need to give us a bit more info (specifics) on your network/server setup for people to try to give you good advice.

I had the same problem a year or so back and it turned out I had a bad DDR2 memory module in my server (that section of memory only seemed to get used when I turned on the HD200).

There is also a setting in your sage.properties file on your server that can be changed to accomodate some network transmission errors:

miniplayer/forced_max_push_size= can be set to 32768 or 65536 or 131072 ie miniplayer/forced_max_push_size=32768 etc.

Tech support is probably very busy with the V7 beta testing right now, but I've always found them to be very responsive.

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

I suspect your network connection is not up to par or there's some memory issue with your SageTV server. You need to give us a bit more info (specifics) on your network/server setup for people to try to give you good advice.

I doubt it is a network problem. I'm using a wired network with cat 5e cable and I've streamed far more challenging media across it to other devices with no problem.

My server is a dual core Vista machine. I'll have to check on other specifics and post them later. I can't get to it right now.

I had the same problem a year or so back and it turned out I had a bad DDR2 memory module in my server (that section of memory only seemed to get used when I turned on the HD200).

That's interesting. How did you determine you had a bad memory module? I assume if Windows reports the expected amount then all are OK?

Tech support is probably very busy with the V7 beta testing right now, but I've always found them to be very responsive.

I'm glad your experience has been different but it doesn't change mine.

I don't care how busy they are at the very least they could do me the courtesy of responding to my request for an update on my bug report.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I started using SageTV + HD200 a few weeks ago. From the start I have had trouble with live TV. I experience frequent "freezes" that usually last 1-3 seconds. When playback resumes it fast forwards so that time wise it is where it would be if the freeze hadn't occurred. This might happen 4 times within 30 mins. It seems to happen more frequently soon after starting live TV and seems to get less frequent as I watch but still happens.

If you let it record the whole show, is it OK? Can you play back at the "server"? The few times I've had this happen, it's been the record stream that was corrupt.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I doubt it is a network problem. I'm using a wired network with cat 5e cable and I've streamed far more challenging media across it to other devices with no problem.

A lot of people have said this in this forum, and a LOT (maybe 75%) of them have found out they had a problem they didn't know about. From bad DHCP servers, to single ports bad on a switch.

Originally Posted by mschauer

That's interesting. How did you determine you had a bad memory module? I assume if Windows reports the expected amount then all are OK?

All Windows does is get the RAM size from the BIOS, which gets it from the SPD (EEPROM) on the module. Neither "check" the RAM. If you have the BIOS run a RAM check at boot, you have about a 50% chance of catching bad RAM. You need a program like:
http://www.memtest86.com/
to fully test RAM on a PC. Very few people do this, as the more RAM you have, the longer it takes.

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

If you let it record the whole show, is it OK? Can you play back at the "server"? The few times I've had this happen, it's been the record stream that was corrupt.

Like I said, it *only* happens during live tv. I never see it during playback of a recorded program. Also, when it does happen I can rewind a bit and the freeze won't happen at the same point of the stream.

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

A lot of people have said this in this forum, and a LOT (maybe 75%) of them have found out they had a problem they didn't know about. From bad DHCP servers, to single ports bad on a switch.

And I'm more than happy to consider that possibility. I would expect the logs I sent to technical support would give a clue but I need them to look at the logs and tell me what, if anything, they see. I have tried bypassing my switch and it didn't help.

That the HD200 sometimes locks up should be a big clue. Surely it is designed such that any minor glitch in the network wouldn't cause it to lock up.

All Windows does is get the RAM size from the BIOS, which gets it from the SPD (EEPROM) on the module. Neither "check" the RAM. If you have the BIOS run a RAM check at boot, you have about a 50% chance of catching bad RAM. You need a program like:
http://www.memtest86.com/
to fully test RAM on a PC. Very few people do this, as the more RAM you have, the longer it takes.

I'll try anything at this point. Since I'm apparently not going to get any help from Sage any troubleshooting tips are *very* appreciated.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by mschauer

That's interesting. How did you determine you had a bad memory module? I assume if Windows reports the expected amount then all are OK?

No test I ran showed any mem problem - I ended up buying a new memory stick and replacing one module at a time, running to see if I still had the issue - replaced the next module etc until I found the 3rd mem mod was the bad one.

But IF your problem is only occuring during live TV, I don't think memory is the isue.

Are you watching/recording both HiDef and SD programs? Does one work better that the other?

[RocKKer]

Originally Posted by MattHelm

All Windows does is get the RAM size from the BIOS, which gets it from the SPD (EEPROM) on the module. Neither "check" the RAM. If you have the BIOS run a RAM check at boot, you have about a 50% chance of catching bad RAM. You need a program like:
http://www.memtest86.com/
to fully test RAM on a PC. Very few people do this, as the more RAM you have, the longer it takes.

Here is a FREE alternative for memory testing - I use it exclusively.

I also had a "problem" with my HD200, the issue ultimately was my server's onboard NIC dropping packets. It copied files and did all the "NIC"cy things it was supposed to do, but media streaming is sensitive.

I'm not saying this is your problem, just don't arbitrarily check things off until they are tested.

Now help us help you - you need to provide more info on your setup. OS, hardware, HD200 firmware version, etc.

[HelenWeathers]

Now help us help you - you need to provide more info on your setup. OS, hardware, HD200 firmware version, etc.

Also on the OS, are service packs up to date, what java version are you running, etc?

Here's something to try. Start a recording, wait 5 minutes and then start watching the recording. Does it play without the stuttering/pauses?

If it plays fine while you are 5 min behind, use your skip ahead until you catch up to real time. Does the issue reappear only once you've caught up to real time?

What hard drive are you using and how is it formatted?

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

Also on the OS, are service packs up to date, what java version are you running, etc?

I'm at work right now. I'll post all that when I get home. I know I'm not up on all the Vista updates. I've been thinking about upgrading to Windows 7, which is something I want to do anyway, so I haven't wanted to go through the pain and potential problems of an update.

Here's something to try. Start a recording, wait 5 minutes and then start watching the recording. Does it play without the stuttering/pauses?

If it plays fine while you are 5 min behind, use your skip ahead until you catch up to real time. Does the issue reappear only once you've caught up to real time?

That's a good idea. I've tried rewinding a bit after a freeze to see if the freeze would occur at the same place again (it doesn't) but I don't recall if the freezing stopped after the rewind. I would expect it does since I never see a freeze when viewing a recording but I'll find out for sure.

What hard drive are you using and how is it formatted?

I'll check on the drive and report it with the other info. If you are asking about the formatting of the partition the recordings are going to, it is formatted with 64k blocks although from the release notes this shouldn't matter with SageTV7.

And I am using the latest beta of both SageTV7 and the HD200 f/w. I just checked last night. I've always had the problem though even before upgrading to v7 though.

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I'll check on the drive and report it with the other info. If you are asking about the formatting of the partition the recordings are going to, it is formatted with 64k blocks although from the release notes this shouldn't matter with SageTV7.

You should post the type of drive also (make, model) as someone might know of issues with your drive or have one that's working perfectly.

The thrust of my question has to do with whether the tuner stream may be stuttering it's writes to the drive for some reason rather than writing data packets smoothly.

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by HelenWeathers

You should post the type of drive also (make, model) as someone might know of issues with your drive or have one that's working perfectly.

The thrust of my question has to do with whether the tuner stream may be stuttering it's writes to the drive for some reason rather than writing data packets smoothly.

I understand. Is there any way to determine if low level write errors are occurring that might be causing write delays but not fatal errors? I assume if a write operation is resulting in a high level error the logs would show that. See why it would be nice if Sage would look at the logs?

[HelenWeathers]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I understand. Is there any way to determine if low level write errors are occurring that might be causing write delays but not fatal errors? I assume if a write operation is resulting in a high level error the logs would show that. See why it would be nice if Sage would look at the logs?

This is a little bit beyond my pay grade. But if your writes are delayed for more that a few seconds your HD200 would reach the end of file and have to regroup to continue playing.

Wait until you get to do the test tonight. Someone will be able to offer suggestions based on your system/results.

EDIT: Also let us know if your recording drive is seperate from your system drive (or on the same drive, even if in a seperate partition), ie dedicated to recording.

[Warren Lockhart]

Originally Posted by mschauer

I strongly suggest you wait until later in the year when the Boxee Box and Google TV are expected to be released. They appear to be more sophisticated solutions and hopefully will have something more than pretend technical support.

I googled Boxee and Google TV. Those do look promising. Thanks!

[MattHelm]

If I remember correctly, there is a setting you can adjust to delaying live TV slightly (in 1000th of a second) that might help you. I can't find it right now. Since your recoded shows work, forcing a slight delay (.5 second?) might fix all your problems.

BTW, when adjusting the Sage.properties file, you need to make sure SageTV is completely shutdown (client and server) before you can make any changes, or even opening the file.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by mschauer

My tuner is a Hauppauge 2250 and I'm using a wired network with cat 5e cable.

Just noticed you didn't list software versions for the 2250. Please post this. There were some bad versions of the drivers.

[mschauer]

I've recieved this response from tech support:

Medora,

It seems there is not enough data available from your server :

Jun 6 14:25:24 m: d005 v067 a018 stc 619820 a 619820 v 620054 (619821) Jun
6 14:25:26 m: HDMI 1 (change 0) Jun 6 14:25:28 m: d005 v000 a000 stc 624225
a 622619 v 623091 (623091) Jun 6 14:25:28 m: audio pts is smaller than stc,
entering paused mode Jun 6 14:25:28 m: HDMI 1 (change 0)

Basically the buffer levels are 0 so it has to pause for a short time. This
can be many causes like a bad recording source, hardware that cause missing
segments, a slow hard drive, or a server which prevents streaming fast
enough.

George

I'm not sure this explains the HD200 locking up though. As an experiment, while viewing live tv I disconnectd the coax to interrupt the video stream. Playback froze as expected but resumed after I reconnected the cable. This even though it took me probably close to a minute to get the cable reconnected. One trial doesn't prove anything but I wonder if maybe there is more than one problem.

I'm going to look at everyting I can do to ensure that nothing intefers with the data getting written to/read from the disk. Currently the recording directory is on my system disk. I have an external drive I think I can attach and try using. I've already tried to make sure there is no crapware stealing CPU cycles or accessing the disk but there is more I can do there.

I'll also go ahead and update to Windows 7 rather than go through the pain of upgrading Vista when I know I want Windows 7 eventually.

Originally Posted by MattHelm

If I remember correctly, there is a setting you can adjust to delaying live TV slightly (in 1000th of a second) that might help you. I can't find it right now. Since your recoded shows work, forcing a slight delay (.5 second?) might fix all your problems.

I was wondering about something like that. Does anybody know the property to change?

Thanks for the help Matt and Helen!

Medora