Note to Recent BTV Converts

[Suntan]

Originally Posted by limiter

It's not artificial to limit the discussion. HTPCs that record TV are very different than devices that just play back media.

I don’t disagree that Sage is the best bet going (and relatively unique) for people that want full DVR capability around the house, but it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of people on other forums often talk about how they use their PS3s or WD lives or PCHs to “ watch their recorded shows over their network.” They record with WinMC, convert to a format their player can handle and then watch the recorded show as a regular media file. Mostly because they have never even realized there is a STB extender out there that could give them full DVR capabilities.

And to reiterate, I would argue (based on what I’ve read on other forums) that there seems to be a larger group of people that want a network connected box to stream DVDs/BRs than there is people that want a computer based solution for recording TV shows. Seeing as this is also a feature that Sage puts significant resources into providing, I think it is artificially limiting to just talk about the customer base that *only* wants a DVR solution.

Now if you are just trying to point out that Sage is at the top of a very unique and small set of requirements (computer DVR that isn’t MS) well, I agree with that. But I guess I am at a loss as to why stating the obvious is so important. I responded because it sounded like you think Sage should just keep doing all the things they are doing. That they should not even try to attract people that are currently looking at all the Boxees and other media streamers. What advantage is there for Sage to concentrate in seclusion on staying where they are, namely the only (non-MS) company that charges for a DVR program, while there are a lot of potential customers out there that don’t even know they exist?

I don’t see this specific customer base increasing (computer based DVR that isn’t MS.) If anything, it is decreasing. Most people still don’t want to hook a computer to their TV. Many folks reluctantly did that back when it was the only way to get access to media over the network. The capabilities of non-Sage boxes have come a long way to the point that few people would choose to hook a PC running Sage to their TV now. As such, I don’t see how it makes sense to limit the discussion to just this small, and dwindling, group. It just seems a little Pollyanna.

-Suntan

[limiter]

Originally Posted by Suntan

Now if you are just trying to point out that Sage is at the top of a very unique and small set of requirements (computer DVR that isn’t MS) well, I agree with that. But I guess I am at a loss as to why stating the obvious is so important. I responded because it sounded like you think Sage should just keep doing all the things they are doing. That they should not even try to attract people that are currently looking at all the Boxees and other media streamers. What advantage is there for Sage to concentrate in seclusion on staying where they are, namely the only (non-MS) company that charges for a DVR program, while there are a lot of potential customers out there that don’t even know they exist?

[I had this big long explanation but no one wants to read it including me so just fill in this part with BLAH BLAH BLAH]

The reality is I am bored at work otherwise I wouldn't put so much effort into these posts, but the whole point to all of this was GoogleTV isn't really a threat because SageTV isn't competitive in or reliant on the the media streaming market right now. That market is flooded with devices, Sage lacks exposure, Sage has to compete with devices with diverse features (PS3/Xbox360), and Sage lacks a content store.

Maybe I should have just said that to start.

[Suntan]

Maybe you should have just said nothing at all if you didn't actually want to discuss the topic...

-Suntan

[limiter]

Originally Posted by Suntan

Maybe you should have just said nothing at all if you didn't actually want to discuss the topic...

Clearly you have some problem with me. I am discussing this. The previous post was intended to be lighter and not so argumentative, but obviously you took it the wrong way.

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by limiter

GoogleTV isn't really a threat because SageTV isn't competitive in or reliant on the the media streaming market right now. That market is flooded with devices, Sage lacks exposure, Sage has to compete with devices with diverse features (PS3/Xbox3600....

I totally agree with this thought. I doubt many have bought an HD Theater only for the stand alone media playback ability. There might be a few people, but not enough to even start to compete with all the other options out there (which many times are better than the HD Theater for that use). People buy SageTV software/licenses and their extenders because it allows them to record TV in an integrated package. That might not be the only reason they buy it, but they choose SageTV because Sage at least has that option where most other media players do not. Google is simply another option is this media streaming category.

Now that isn't to say that SageTV might loose sales to Google, or that SageTV couldn't learn a thing or two from google's implementation,or that SageTV wouldn't be better if there was some way to integrate GoogleTV into Sage. I'm just saying that what GoogleTV is trying to do is not the core model that SageTV is going after.

[Suntan]

Originally Posted by limiter

Clearly you have some problem with me. I am discussing this. The previous post was intended to be lighter and not so argumentative, but obviously you took it the wrong way.

No problems other than the notion that you wouldn’t waste your time here if it wasn’t for the fact that you were already bored at work... That came off as rather insulting.

-Suntan

[Suntan]

Originally Posted by sic0048

I doubt many have bought an HD Theater only for the stand alone media playback ability.

I agree.

But then again, I doubt people only buy a WD Live, PCH, or Dune for their stand alone video playback capability either (they can all access video files off computers/NAS on the LAN.) There are definitely customers that shop the features of these components against the likes of a Sage extender w/ associated Sage server.

As for how Google fits into this, it remains to be seen.

That’s all I’ve got. I'm out.

-Suntan

[autoboy]

frankly, I'm confused as to why the HD200 is universally ignored as a media streamer.

As far as I can tell it is just as capable as a WD Live and seems to have better support for things like subtitles, BD file systems, ISOs, etc.

The only thing I can think of is that it is $200 when the rest of the boxes are in the $100 range. But that alone can't account for the absolute complete lack of notoriety in the media streamer space. I don't follow a ton of sites that cover media streamers, but Anandtech just wrote an article saying they are going to cover the space, and failed to mention SageTV at all.

GoogleTV seems to be another widget aggregator OS. Right now the content providers each have a widget for their content delivery. There's Netflix, Hulu, ESPN, MLB, etc. And then you've got a gaggle of different OSs on TVs and BD players, AppleTVs, Roku's, Tivos, Yahoo Widgets, etc. It is a complete mess. Google aims to replace all those OSs with a universal OS so everyone will only have to build a widget for the Google OS, and then Google will get that OS into all the TVs and BD players, and Logitech media streamers. It seems to be a similar strategy as they did with Andriod phone OS. Apple went closed, and Google went open. There's something about a free market that just gets stuff done...

If Google plays things right, each device will run a standard OS, but will have customizations specific to that device. The Logitech device will run GoogleTV for access to the standard suite of widgets but will also feature their proprietary squeezebox software.

One of the major issues with sageTV is getting DRMed content like Netflix and Hulu on their devices. PlayOn works to an extent, but isn't really a good solution. What would be ideal is to have a SageTV HDX00 that runs googleTV OS with access to all their widgets, but also runs SageTVs extender software.

GoogleTV is an OS and that's where I think Google as got it right. Roku built a hardware platform AND an OS but that limits it to a Roku box. AppleTV was a closed system and didn't seem to want to integrate widgets. The BD players all operate proprietary OSs. If Google plays its cards right and builds an OS that allows other companies to use that as a starting point for their own proprietary products, then they will succeed in finally building a platform for TV enabled widgets. I could personally care less about the TV search capability, but a consistent OS that allows me access to every widget sounds good to me.

Now, I could be completely wrong about what I think GoogleTV will be since we've only seen a small part of it, but after seeing the Logitech Box in action I'm fairly confident that this is the path they are looking to take. Now, if it does take off, and if SageTV can get a HDX00 box out that runs GoogleOS AND works as an extender for their SageTV on a stick server, then they may have a real winner on their hands among the nerdier crowd. I'm actually hoping that SageTV never goes mainstream because if you think about how dumb the average person is, and then imagine that a full 1/2 of the population is stupider than that, I'd rather not see SageTV devolve into that.

[limiter]

Originally Posted by autoboy

frankly, I'm confused as to why the HD200 is universally ignored as a media streamer....
...The only thing I can think of is that it is $200 when the rest of the boxes are in the $100 range. But that alone can't account for the absolute complete lack of notoriety in the media streamer space. I don't follow a ton of sites that cover media streamers, but Anandtech just wrote an article saying they are going to cover the space, and failed to mention SageTV at all.

I believe most of the problem is exposure. A lot of people go to Amazon.com, BestBuy, Buy.com, NewEgg.com to research and shop, and HD200 is not available on any of those stores. If you go to google's shopping engine and type "Sage HD200" you get no results. Searching on Google for "HD media player" or "media streamer" with no quotes I got to page 50 with no mention of the HD200.

The best I came up with was searching for "media streamer review" no quotes and on Page 23 there is a Sage HD200 review from AVRev.com

Sage could put the HD200 up on Amazon as a 3rd party seller and they would instantly get a lot more exposure. They could buy ads for when people search for certain keywords like "media streamer" or they could shop around the device to electronics retailers like NewEgg.

I guess the question is: does Sage want to sell a lot of HD200s. If the answer is yes then they need to get a lot more exposure for it. Having the device appear on Engadget was good, but I think getting it listed at other stores is vital and having the device appear in search results is important. It may be Arstechnica is not reviewing it because they simply do not know about the device.

If you do "link: http://sagetv.com/hd_theater.html" (hd200 product page) in google you get 90 results.

If you do "link: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/index.asp?cat=30" (western digital media player product page) in google you get 5620 results. This is what Sage is up against, and it results in a massive difference in page rankings.

If the answer is Sage does not want to sell lots of HD200s, then I'm guessing Sage makes a very small profit on it and is essentially using it to push software sales, or they don't feel they can support a huge number of new customers, or some other reason I can't think of.

[autoboy]

Limiter, thats a very good analysis of the problem. I had never thought about it that way.

I can't see how they don't make any profit on the sale of the HD200 since the hardware in them isn't very expensive and they are selling them for quite a bit higher prices than competing media streamers. The HD200 is also a great stepping stone to the full blown media suite. That is the way I pitched to my brother and he later picked up a WHS and some HD-PVRs and built the full system out.

The problem is probably not that they don't want to, it is probably that they lack the experience in selling on to those markets. Sage is a very technology focused company.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by autoboy

I can't see how they don't make any profit on the sale of the HD200

When I interviewed Jeff last summer it was clear that they definitely did make a profit from the HD200s - at least at that time. And that's a good thing cause we need the company to be successful to continue to support and innovate. I don't doubt they could do a better job of marketing although they don't seem to have had too much trouble selling the HD200s

[DaiTengu]

When I first started looking into PVR software about 5 years ago, It really wound up being a toss-up between BTV and SageTV.

Even back then, BTV's support was starting to slip. I eventually settled on SageTV, and, barring a few minor hiccups here and there, I'm quite glad I did.

[jdamore]

Welp! I pulled the trigger and through my btv software and license box in the garbage last night. No sense in wasting space..

- MUAHHAHAHAHAHA

[Monedeath]

Originally Posted by autoboy

GoogleTV seems to be another widget aggregator OS. Right now the content providers each have a widget for their content delivery. There's Netflix, Hulu, ESPN, MLB, etc. And then you've got a gaggle of different OSs on TVs and BD players, AppleTVs, Roku's, Tivos, Yahoo Widgets, etc. It is a complete mess. Google aims to replace all those OSs with a universal OS so everyone will only have to build a widget for the Google OS, and then Google will get that OS into all the TVs and BD players, and Logitech media streamers.

I guess Sage should possibly be looking for a way to get "SageTV widgets" running on GoogleTV devices, if that's what Google is playing at. (You would still need a server running somewhere in the house, but getting it from the server to the TV is addressed, as I imagine the GoogleTV appliance would be networked, or it defeats the purpose)

One of the major issues with sageTV is getting DRMed content like Netflix and Hulu on their devices. PlayOn works to an extent, but isn't really a good solution. What would be ideal is to have a SageTV HDX00 that runs googleTV OS with access to all their widgets, but also runs SageTVs extender software.

Alternately, if SageTV exists as a possible "widget" within GoogleTV, you might be able to install it onto your other "GoogleTV Device" and you have your extender without needing to physically get an extender.. So a HDX00 running GoogleTV wouldn't necessarily be warranted. Except you probably would want a "gold standard" type device to aim people towards, as I'm sure a number of those GoogleTV appliances wouldn't be able to handle the full feature set an Extender does.

Basically SageTV no longer needs to provide YouTube, NetFlix, Block Buster, and Hulu support on the extender. As the GoogleTV box already does that for the user, SageTV becomes just another extension of the Google Box like Youtube and the rest are. (Sage basically becomes just a DVR/PVR widget, at least as far as GoogleTV is concerned, as other GoogleTV widgets would likely be handling everything else, if not, more widgets can be made to duplicate those functions)

Now, I could be completely wrong about what I think GoogleTV will be since we've only seen a small part of it, but after seeing the Logitech Box in action I'm fairly confident that this is the path they are looking to take. Now, if it does take off, and if SageTV can get a HDX00 box out that runs GoogleOS AND works as an extender for their SageTV on a stick server, then they may have a real winner on their hands among the nerdier crowd.

If you're right, and I think it makes a fair degree of sense, looking at the Android side of things for Cellphones. I think GoogleTV could very well end up being complimentary to SageTV rather than competitive with it... Unless they're reliant on Extender sales to stay afloat, but in that case, they have widget sales to offset that, and electronic downloads are almost pure "butter" from a cost to profit margin standpoint, so being in a position to drop the hardware side has its perks.