I miss my SageTV!

[zjennings]

Gave up cable for almost a year. Rather than going with cable, I decided to get Fios. The HD looks so much better. The downside? I had to give up on SageTV. But the Fios DVR has driven my wife and I crazy.

What should I do? Moxi, Tivo, or Windows Media Center with that new quad cablecard tuner coming May 31st?

I've read all the problems with the HD-PVR, and the fact that the cable companies may soon be able to disable analog ports whenever they feel like it. So I don't think I want to drop a ton of money on two HD-PVR boxes and have to rent two HD cable boxes.

I'm so sad that I can't use SageTV the way I used to. I tried QAM with my Fios, to find that only a couple channels were available.

Is SageTV a dying product?

Zach

[aflat]

Why did you give up sage? I'm one of many people here using Sage with FIOS and a HDPVR. I'm not worried about selectable analog output, I can wait the 90 days it takes to come to blu-ray anyways, I always have in the past.

[zjennings]

Originally Posted by aflat

Why did you give up sage? I'm one of many people here using Sage with FIOS and a HDPVR. I'm not worried about selectable analog output, I can wait the 90 days it takes to come to blu-ray anyways, I always have in the past.

I have read about all the problems with the HDPVR. I don't want to setup something that constantly has problems like the HDPVR does (delays, doesn't turn the STB on, etc). Plus, I don't want to have to buy two HDPVR and rent two HD Boxes from Fios. Not to mention, I've read the quality is pretty crappy the way the HDPVR compresses it.

Zach

[vividweb]

Originally Posted by zjennings

Not to mention, I've read the quality is pretty crappy the way the HDPVR compresses it.

I haven't heard anyone complain about quality of the picture becasue of the HD-PVR. I know I am more than happy with the quality that is coming out of the HD-PVR, I can't see the difference between my HD-PVR and the signal coming out of my Sat box. There were some issues with reliability but I think there are a few tutorials out there on how to make them pretty solid. I have one tuner that gives me trouble once a month, but I think it is STB being inactive that is causing the issue. Remember the people that are happy hardly ever say anything, the people that have trouble are the ones you hear from.

[zjennings]

Originally Posted by vividweb

I haven't heard anyone complain about quality of the picture becasue of the HD-PVR. I know I am more than happy with the quality that is coming out of the HD-PVR, I can't see the difference between my HD-PVR and the signal coming out of my Sat box. There were some issues with reliability but I think there are a few tutorials out there on how to make them pretty solid. I have one tuner that gives me trouble once a month, but I think it is STB being inactive that is causing the issue. Remember the people that are happy hardly ever say anything, the people that have trouble are the ones you hear from.

But that still means that I would have to purchase two HD-PVR boxes at $200 each and rent two HD STB boxes at $20/mo. In one year I would end up dropping $640 the first year. At that point, what should I do? Moxi is only $500 with the cablecard rental of $36/year. Tivo would be $299 plus the $36/year for cable card and plus the $129/year Tivo service fee. That's all way too much money for what I used to be able to do with a couple sub $100 tuners and SageTV.

Maybe I should just get Moxi. I hate the idea of using Tivo (make you pay a monthly fee, then they insert ads on top of that???).

Or maybe I should rent a SD STB from Fios and send it away to that company that modifies it to work with SageTV to record HD unincripted.

Thoughts?

[paulbeers]

The other option is to record off of your HD STB w/ a fairly cheap SD MPEG2 card via Svideo. Yes it wouldn't be HD, but it is a fairly cheap alternative and many find it acceptable (I don't, but my wife would). The image quality would still be better than the old coax connection since the source would be considerably better. That is probably the cheapest way to capture content into Sage.

[zjennings]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

The other option is to record off of your HD STB w/ a fairly cheap SD MPEG2 card via Svideo. Yes it wouldn't be HD, but it is a fairly cheap alternative and many find it acceptable (I don't, but my wife would). The image quality would still be better than the old coax connection since the source would be considerably better. That is probably the cheapest way to capture content into Sage.

Yeah, I thought about that. I'd also need a USB UIRT. Then when Fios does software updates (almost on a weekly basis) it will knock that out of sync. Plus, I'm the type of person that notices the crappy compression that ESPN uses on their ESPN-HD channel. I can see it from 12 feet away on my 58" plasma.

I'm starting to think Moxi might be the way to go. Either that or Windows Media Center with the Ceton card. I wish someone from Sage would come out and say if they were ever going to go through the certification process, so the cablecards would work directly in SageTV. Seriously, I wouldn't even care if HD videos were DRM'd. I just want an intelligent and fast responding DVR that can record HD and play my downloaded videos.

Zach

[stanger89]

I just want to clearly set some things strait.

Originally Posted by zjennings

I have read about all the problems with the HDPVR. I don't want to setup something that constantly has problems like the HDPVR does (delays, doesn't turn the STB on, etc).

99% of the problems you've read about with the HD PVR are comments that are obsolete. The HD PVR is quite reliable these days. That said, the tuning delays are still there and if your box shuts itself off well...

Not to mention, I've read the quality is pretty crappy the way the HDPVR compresses it.

That's crap IMO. The only way I can tell if I'm watching an HD PVR recording or an R5000 recording (direct bitstream off Dish) is to look at the recording details. I posted clips a while back. Quality is a non-issue with the HD PVR IMO.

[Clift]

Since FiOS has mostly all of their non-premium channels marked as copy freely you could just get a CETON InfitiTV4 and use Babgvants SageMCTuner. You'd be a pioneer in the field

But really, that options may be viable for you. The only down side is you would probably have to wait a bit to see what the reliability of that plugin is, and also until the InfiniTV is released. At worst you'd end up with a tuner that could always work in Windows 7 Media Center

[zjennings]

Originally Posted by Clift

Since FiOS has mostly all of their non-premium channels marked as copy freely you could just get a CETON InfitiTV4 and use Babgvants SageMCTuner. You'd be a pioneer in the field

But really, that options may be viable for you. The only down side is you would probably have to wait a bit to see what the reliability of that plugin is, and also until the InfiniTV is released. At worst you'd end up with a tuner that could always work in Windows 7 Media Center

Not sure if this makes any sense, so correct me if I am wrong. I tried, just for kicks, to record to my MacBook Pro via the FireWire port on my HD STB. Only the local channels would actually display (and only a few shows). Does that still mean that the other channels are copy freely? I thought if the channels had the 5c flag, that meant they were copy once or copy never. If this is the case, than my experience would dictate that just about all channels and shows in my Fios area are not copy freely.

The only other thing I'm worried about is WMC7 not meeting the WAF. She got really used to how Sage worked and the speed. Not sure WMC7 will come close to that experience.

Thanks,
Zach

[ToxMox]

As I understand it 5c is an encryption on a QAM stream. If a channel is 5c then it can't be decoded without a cablecard.

Copy Freely is a flag in the stream that tells cablecard certified devices what can be done with the decrypted stream.

I'm sure someone will come along with a better explanation

[zjennings]

I guess I'm stuck with the annoying Fios DVR until the Ceton card comes out. Then hope that we can get it working with SageTV.

*sigh* I get so tired of hacking stuff together just to have SageTV's basic functionality. SageTV needs to build their own Moxi-like box. I'd drop $500 right now if I could have a 3-tuner box with one multistream cablecard and the SageTV interface and functionality (including that functionality on extenders and placeshifters). Instead we are stuck with spending well over $500 for stuff that "kind of" works or doesn't give us the basic functionality of SageTV.

It really makes me sad. I miss my SageTV.

Zach

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by zjennings

Instead we are stuck with spending well over $500 for stuff that "kind of" works or doesn't give us the basic functionality of SageTV.

I'm sure there are quite a few people who would disagree with that assessment, including me. My SageTV setup (using DirecTV) is fantastic and works 99% of the time. I don't recall the last recording I missed due to any sort of failure and we have ~60 favorites set up. I have no clue what you mean when you talk about stuff which "doesn't give us the basic functionality of SageTV."

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by ToxMox

As I understand it 5c is an encryption on a QAM stream. If a channel is 5c then it can't be decoded without a cablecard.

FWIW "5C", technically the CCI (Copy Control Information) bit and QAM encryption are independent of each other. Encryption is what scrambles cable channels and require the use of CableCard to decrypt. It's the equivalent of the encryption on satellite that prevents access to satellite without a card.

CCI is a flag that indicates how a program can be recorded/copied. It doesn't have anything to do with whether CableCard is necessary to view a channel. What it does do is, in the case of a cable STB with firewire, affect whether DTCP (aka 5C encryption) is required on the recording device. In the case of a CableCard "tuner" ie PC, it determines whether DRM is required on the recording.

[Clift]

Stanger,

I think you'll agree, though, that a lot Cable STBs have a broken implementation of 5C DTCP. That is, the video stream may be tagged as copy freely 0x00 but the cable box still applies 5C protection to the stream. 5C DTCP in Encryption Plus Non-assertion (EPN) mode.... It's a PITA. But, like I said in my previous post, it's been generally agreed that FiOS flags most of their content as copy freely. Of course this could change at anay time. I think the OP should look into his geographical area to see what others are having success. Specifically, if TIVO users are able to get their recordings off their DVR's using TIVO2GO or TIVO Desktop.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb....php?p=6761420

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Clift

Stanger,

I think you'll agree, though, that a lot Cable STBs have a broken implementation of 5C DTCP. That is, the video stream may be tagged as copy freely 0x00 but the cable box still applies 5C protection to the stream.

Oh definitely, my only point is that a lot of people seem to conflate CCI and cable encryption when they aren't the same thing. There have been instances of clear QAM being flagged Copy Once or Copy Never, meaning you'd be able to record all day long with a QAM tuner, but not over firewire.

Mainly you can't use encryption or CCI to determine the presence/status of the other.

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by zjennings

Yeah, I thought about that. I'd also need a USB UIRT. Then when Fios does software updates (almost on a weekly basis) it will knock that out of sync.

Zach

I know with my Dish service, I simply have set the Dish supplied STB to automatically tune to a channel at 2:59am after it services itself at 2am. I do this because Dish automatically puts the box to sleep after updating.

Other people get around the issue by setting the USB-UIRT to send out a "Select" command prior to each channel change command. So instead of "channel 4" it sends out "select, channel 4".

So the short answer is there are many sucessful ways to get around the issue you speak about.

[stanger89]

Yup, I've got mine programmed to send "Select 123 Select".

[mayamaniac]

I have FIOS and an HD-PVR for over a year now, and have no problems with SageTV. I have a motorola QIP7100, it is just a standard STB with HD channels and not a DVR, so it's only about $10/month. I use firewire for channel changing and it is 100% reliable. I have not experience any powering off with the QIP7100. And recording from the HD-PVR playback perfectly on the HD200 extender. Picture quality is outstanding.

Here's my advice:

Get an HD-PVR, just one for now. Return the Fios DVR and get one HD STB instead. Make sure it has firewire and test it to make sure it works with SageTV. There are tutorials on the forum on how to do it. Next, get an HDHomeRun and set it up to work with SageTV. The HDHR should give you two more tuners that will cover network channels and some clear QAM ones on FIOS. That will give you a total of three tuners.

And if you find that you need a second STB and HD-PVR, then you have the option to get that.

[mikejaner]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

I have FIOS and an HD-PVR for over a year now, and have no problems with SageTV. I have a motorola QIP7100, it is just a standard STB with HD channels and not a DVR, so it's only about $10/month. I use firewire for channel changing and it is 100% reliable. I have not experience any powering off with the QIP7100. And recording from the HD-PVR playback perfectly on the HD200 extender. Picture quality is outstanding.

Here's my advice:

Get an HD-PVR, just one for now. Return the Fios DVR and get one HD STB instead. Make sure it has firewire and test it to make sure it works with SageTV. There are tutorials on the forum on how to do it. Next, get an HDHomeRun and set it up to work with SageTV. The HDHR should give you two more tuners that will cover network channels and some clear QAM ones on FIOS. That will give you a total of three tuners.

And if you find that you need a second STB and HD-PVR, then you have the option to get that.

I agree, because that's what I did. We didn't think we could get away with only one FIOS box, but it turns out it's great. With two HDHR's recording the local stations in HD, we do 90% of our viewing on those. With the single cable box, we schedule only a few things a week. In my experience, I have seen a few recording conflicts with something like "The Pacific" conflicting with something my wife wanted to record ramdomly. In every case like that, the cable channel showed the conflicting recording three hours later, so SageTV figured it out automatically.