2 Noob Strategy Questions

[DBGaither]

Okay, so I've decided that Sage is the software for me. I am a Mac guy, but from what I see, there is more hardware flexibility in using a Windows system rather than a Mac Mini or something else. I have nothing to use, I'll have to buy/build. (I DID pick up a SiliconDust tuner on sale already).


Strategy Question 1: Should I go server/extender or start out with just a system that will connect directly to my TV?

Thinking: I've considered building an HTPC to look nice with the rest of my gear, but the HD-200 has received such great reviews, I'm beginning to think I could purchase some ugly minimum (but upgradeable) system to run the Sage server software and then use an HD-200 for the front end. I realize this path will probably cost a bit more.... on the other hand.... There are some very attractive HTPC cases around and it would be handy to have an "extra" computer in case one of my kids need to type a paper or we just want to do a little couch browsing on the internet.


Strategy Question 2: NAS or DAS?

Thinking: Because we will use Macs exclusively for our personal use, I would like to have access to network storage for backups, shared files, sharing iTunes libraries, remote access etc. (Synology DS209?) I'm not sure if that capability is possibly with direct storage.... on the other hand.... it may be much cheaper to buy a big ole ugly PC with lots of drive bays and fill it up!


Personal Wants/Needs: I would like to be able to play/rip Blu-Ray (yes-that I own). This is one of the main reason's I think the Mac solution is not for me. I have several old TV's that I'd like to press into use around the house. I was thinking extenders would work there.


So, what advise do you have for me?

[PiX64]

DBGaither,

You made the right choice!!!

1) I personally would go the server extender route. I, like you had a decision to make when switching to sage, and i chose the wrong one :-). I chose to go with the pc at every tv. While this is an ok option, it is just not as easy as you may think. Aside from having to setup every client pc with codecs, etc you will also have to maintain every Client pc. Installing a plugin? well you will have to install the stvi on ever single pc and maintain those plugins seperatly. This along with a few other things were really a killer for me an caused me to switch to the 3 hd200 system i have running now.

The hd200 looks great, and works phenomenally. The ability to control everything from the sage server is huge. you want to run SageMC? well then you install the stvi plugin and simply load it from each of the extenders rather than having to do seperate installs on every client pc. U can also do things like have a unified theme for all tvs, or even customize them based on the needs of the individuals using that particular hd200.

One more thing to consider, at least in my opinion, is with the addition of bluray support, and the AMAZING hulu plugin, there isn't really a need for a pc at every tv. the hd200 will allow you to connect to playon via SageServer or even in standalone mode. it also plays back blurays flawlessly.

2) I chose to go with the NAS solution. reason being is that i wanted to have the flexibility to add storage as i needed, use different server software as i saw fit, run multiple servers along side of the NAS, etc. I also chose NAS because i wanted the ability to use expandable hardware raid, which in my opinion is the only solution for a system where you are pushing mutliple TB's. in my case 10.

my nas setup is ubuntu sever 9.10 using webmin to control it. I have a PERC 5/i card which has 2 arrays setup on it. channel 1 has 4 1TB drives setup in raid 5, and channel 2 has 4 1.5 TB drives setup in raid 5. Raid 5 is exteremly fast, and give me the level of redundancy i require.

One other design fact that i had to consider when chosing a storage solution was that my server all be it decent isnn't the greatest. I wanted to offload as much work as possible to other server.

3) for bluray ripping i use Slysloft AnyDVD-HD which is for the price one of the best out there. I have yet to come across a bluray or DVD that i am unable to rip.

4) if the TVS are older CRTs, you may be able to get away with a cheaper solution being an MediaMVP...

Hope that helps at least a little.

[JetreL]

I agree that the Server-Extender route is the best way to go. You save on power, no fighting the quirks that just for some reason don't work right, and it really is just a good overall expandable solution.

Storage: I personally say buy a case that supports many drives, run WHS (designed to run headless) and use multiple drives for the WHS software raid drive for files that you want to assure you never loose. ie your music collections, images, DVD/Bluyray rips(ripping them once took long enough), etc

Then put your recorded programs on drives that are not in the array. Sage's disk utilization works fairly well and the way I look at it is if you loose a TV show because of disk failure, well it's TV and can be recovered.

Other options you may want to look at is:

• Install SageMC (Tweak to SageTV's UI)
• Purchasing PlayOn [playon.tv] and installing the Playon plugin.
• Install BMT (Allows you to pull Movie and TV listing for your recordings)
• Install Jetty web server. (Web server access for SageTV)
• Install Comskip (Commercial Skip. Once you start it will be a pain to ever not have it)
• Install SJQ (Allows you to automate certain tasks within Sage such as commercial skipping, video compressing, etc)

Here is a listing of some of the customizations

Many of these are well worth a look and make the SageTV a great DVR solution.

[autoboy]

Unless you plan to transcode frequently, or need the use of Playon for Hulu and netflix, you could try to find a free used PC from someone you know. I'm always coming across used PCs that are perfectly capable SageTV servers. A single core Athlon at 2ghz would be nice. I would personally stay away from Intel P4 based PCs since they tend to use a lot of power but hey, it was free so who cares...

You could also build a cheap PC based on an Athlon II. $385 - you could go cheaper but would start to hurt quality. This is something that I would actually want to own.

$65 motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813138182

$60 processor (you could also go with the Sempron for $35 but why not go dual core? You're a mac guy so you can't be that poor)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103688

$50 memory (I went with a single 2GB stick which is slower than 2X1GB sticks but lets you upgrade later)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820134751

$80 Antec Case with good PSU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129072

$100 Pick a HD.

$30 Windows 7 - get a student to help you buy it.

Or, my favorite option:
A $650 WHS that can also backup all your macs in the house while serving their content. You must get HP to support the Macs. I would go with the faster CPU since these aren't very upgradable and you may want to run playon with hulu and netflix support someday, even if you don't plan to now.
http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/c...QD4!-500434965

[sandor]

i started with a windows server + windows clients with sage 4. when the time came i switched slowly to windows server + mac clients, and then mac server + mac clients and finally where i am at now - mac server and HD200.

playback and maintenance has never been easier than it is with a server + HD200.


Just recently i switch from DAS to a NAS --> http://www.qnap.com/pro_detail_feature.asp?p_id=109 it is wonderful, and i have no issues recording 4 streams from my HDHR's and encoding video at the same time. I also use the NAS for my iTunes library and TimeMachine.

Qnap makes some ridiculously fast NAS systems - in my testing, with a single user, the 809 was faster than our XRaid and our Promise VTrak E-class at work (with >5 users those two systems excelled though)


The Mac server makes Comskip a little more difficult, and I haven't been able to get PlayOn working (both are technically windows only - i try crossover and parallels/vmware)

[tmiranda]

The QNAP looks really good, but considering it's $1,700 without any disks I think there are more cost efficient NAS solutions available for home users. Just my $0.02.

[matterw]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

The QNAP looks really good, but considering it's $1,700 without any disks I think there are more cost efficient NAS solutions available for home users. Just my $0.02.

Ditto this -- While I know that this is NAS, there are alternatives to getting more space. Rather than spend the $1200 on the NAS you can put an external disk array in your server with a product like this from Sans Digital for $300 -- that's a difference of $900! Not sure how you are using the NAS, but unless you have a very specific use, I see no reason why you can't substitute this and enjoy the savings.

My thoughts anyway...

<Matt>

[sandor]

Originally Posted by tmiranda

The QNAP looks really good, but considering it's $1,700 without any disks I think there are more cost efficient NAS solutions available for home users. Just my $0.02.

definitely true. and qnap does have smaller (ie NOT 8 disk) systems as well.

i have the QNAP 8 disk at my disposal because i had to build it as an offsite backup system for our work servers (it got a bit too expensive to out-source weekly backup of our servers (+/- 8 TB currently, with about 10 GB added a week)

So the QNAP is a hair over 12 TB, RAID 5, and cost about $3000 to build out fully including disks.


But you can get a 2 drive system for less, throw in 2x 2TB drives and be set.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...n=qnap&x=0&y=0


Brand wasn't what i was pushing, rather that a decent NAS can easily provide the throughput necessary for a robust Sage system.

[SWKerr]

What is the benefit of a NAS?

If I have a machine running 24/7 why would I not use it as a file server. A file server is more expandable and cheaper and can usually do more than just file sharing.

[DBGaither]

I've been doing a lot of research about NAS units and I'm thinking that may be a more flexible long-term solution for me. That being the case, I'm thinking that perhaps a small adequate server that attaches directly to my TV may coupled with a NAS device may be a good way to get started.

I've been reading about Dell's Zino HD. I could probably do without Blu-Ray capability for now and just play them on my BRD player. That way, I could spend a bit more $ on the NAS and upgrading my network to handle the traffic. I realize the Zino is not a high-powered solution, but in order to "get in the door" on a solution, it seems like a good compromise. Then later on, I could relegate it to only serving, maybe even pop in a BR drive.

[blade]

Originally Posted by DBGaither

I'm thinking that perhaps a small adequate server that attaches directly to my TV...

Personally I think you'd be better off tucking the server away somewhere and getting a HD200 for playback. Most people who have had both PC clients and extenders agree the extenders are the way to go, myself included. I understand being able to browse the net and do other things is appealing, but for me the noise of a HTPC next to the TV and the cost of trying to get the thing quiet enough to tolerate just isn't worth it. I'm very sensitive to noise so it might not bother you. The HD200 is completely silent.

I've been reading about Dell's Zino HD. I could probably do without Blu-Ray capability for now and just play them on my BRD player. That way, I could spend a bit more $ on the NAS and upgrading my network to handle the traffic. I realize the Zino is not a high-powered solution, but in order to "get in the door" on a solution, it seems like a good compromise. Then later on, I could relegate it to only serving, maybe even pop in a BR drive.

I don't know anything about the Zino, but looking at the pictures it looks like a poor choice for a server. Unless I'm mistaken you can't add internal cards such as tuners. If you plan to have it next to your TV then with the exception of a HDHomeRun all of your tuners are going to be located near the TV in order to connect them to your "server".

[DBGaither]

Blade,

I was just trying to stretch my money. That's why I was considering starting out with an attachable PC to pull front end/back end duties. I already have a SiliconDust networkable tuner, so I wasn't concerned about expandability. I am hearing loud and clear from everyone that the HD200 is the preferable way to proceed, However, if I could use a unit such as the Zino as the server without an HD200 then I could probably squeak in an NAS purchase in order to record shows on the smallish internal HD and then copy them over to the NAS. At some point in the future, I would then purchase an HD200 for my other TV.

So I'm considering a minimal server with other goodies so I can actually get started on my HTPC reality. We only use a terrestrial antenna and watch our movies, with some minimal Netflix streaming (thru my LG BD390).

Does anyone know about using a Zino HD as a SageTV server? Am I going too cheap? I have never built my own PC and I really don't want to mess around with learning those skills and then perhaps have to troubleshoot it. So I was looking for an easier (albeit slightly more $$) alternative. I don't see any IR options from Dell, are there aftermarket remote control solutions?

[DBGaither]

Originally Posted by SWKerr

What is the benefit of a NAS?

If I have a machine running 24/7 why would I not use it as a file server. A file server is more expandable and cheaper and can usually do more than just file sharing.

The reason's I am considering an NAS is:

Expandable RAID options
Time Machine compatible backups for all my Macintosh systems
iTunes server functionality
DLNA support for various game systems around the house

I guess because of my unfamiliarity with Windows, I'm a little skiddish about selection/building/maintenance of a Windows based file server that did everything. Maybe it is something I should re-consider. I'm sure the Windows servers provide the RAID/DLNA but I am unsure about Time Machine and iTunes server capabilities.

Suggestions?

[PiX64]

Well i don't technically use a "NAS" as I stated earlier. I have a server setup which is used for all file shares, user data, backups, etc.

With ubuntu Server 9.10 as well as other distros, there are ways to setup space on some or all of the drives in your server for time machine backup and such.

As far as expandability/extendability i would seriously consider building your own server as i did. Back when i built this machine it was roughly 8 months ago and i was able to build the entire thing...less the drives for right around 300.

That includes and Athlon x2 dual core cpu, 2 GB of ram, full tower server case wihch holds up to 12 drives, and the Perc 5/i card. When i started putting drives in it it of course got to be a little bit more....BUT whats cool is i oringally set this server up with only 1 raid array of 3 drives because i was being a cheap ass... i later added a drive (heterogeneously) to my array and the perc card allowed me to then have a 4 drive heterogeneous array RAID 5...
a few months later when i started doing bluray, i simply bought 4 drives 1.5 TB popped em in, setup a new array, done and done..

[tt55du]

I have a QNAP and was wondering if I could run Sage Server directly on it.
It has runs linux, has an x86 dualcore atom and I can get java on on
I just need it to server media and scrape imdb info

Anybody think this is doable? I wonder how headless administration would be? I wish I could get a linux demo license.