Why does SageTV change the channel every hour

[wayner]

When it comes to sports you scan manually add additional time to a game or you can you Sage Recording Extender (SRE) an addin developed by Slugger that monitors websites to keep your recording going until the game is over. It is fantastic.

In terms of scheduling recordings from your laptop there are a few options. You can use Sage Placeshifter ($30) which gives you the same UI as you get on the sever, including the ability to watch shows. This works on your LAN or over the Internet, assuming that you forward the correct ports on your router.

The other option is to install the Sage Web server which allows you to schedule recordings and much more. There is also a mobile version of the web server optimized for smart phones. It is a free third party add-on to Sage.

[sportera]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

It's been discussed at length, and basically, to change it would be a major overhaul in the way Sage's system works. Most users of Sage have moved almost entirely away from livetv, and so it seems to have been decided that it isn't worth the potential problems at this point to change it.

You know Fuzzy, I'd sure appreciate it if you stopped making the comment "most users have moved away from livetv..." in so many threads. That is simply not true. I'm really not trying to be a smart a** here and please don't take it that way as I've read much in the forum where you've helped many. But to be honest, there are a few guys out there who have a lot of time and money invested in big hard drives, many tuners, and all the bells and whistles, but in the vast majority of Sage users that is the exception rather than the rule.

There are known problems with Sage since supporting HDPVR's that are aggrivating to many and the Sage developers need to hear the feedback and prioritize fixing these problems.

Sorry (really) if I offend anyone but had to say it.

[Fuzzy]

Then perhaps I should start saying 'most users who have discussed their usage habits on these forums, have moved away from live tv within a year of starting their sagetv use' because that has been my observation over the past 5+ years. As for the comments/complaints trying to prioritize sage's plans, understand that this is a user forum, and not sage's feedback mechanism. Also, they are already aware of the issue, as it HAS been discussed over and over again. MY comments in that regard are more to encourage newer users to stick with sage dispite the livetv pause issues, by helping them to understand that it will become less and less of an issue as their favorite list grows, because more and more of their watching will be pre-recorded content.

[paulbeers]

I would also like to state that most of the people I know with a DVR of any type (whether it is Sage, DVR or Tivo) all eventually migrate away from live tv. Isn't that the point of a DVR? It is rare for anyone that I know to watch stuff live unless it is News or Sports (I have even gone to timeshifting the News as well!).

So I would contend that MOST users of a DVR don't watch much live tv. If I polled all my friends with DVR's, I bet you that they do 80%+ of their viewing as previously recorded shows.

[Naylia]

Because what else can you do when you have 16 days of tv to catch up on

[Rico66]

Yes, it has been discussed a lot, and I don't think there's really an argument with the exception of the mentioned news and sports. It simply sucks if the pause hits during the last 10 seconds of a game (especially if you use a HD PVR, where the pause takes about this time to recover).

Yesterday it hit again, with 4.5 seconds remaining of a hockey game. Once the picture was back, the game was over.

[Trepidati0n]

Originally Posted by Naylia

Because what else can you do when you have 16 days of tv to catch up on

Only 16? My wife takes it to an extreme. She tends to wait for a TV series to finish, become highly syndicated and go on a recording binge. I think we managed to get all of 7th heaven in like 1 month and she is on a marathon right now watching.

[sportera]

You guys kill me (ha ha)...

Live TV IS NOT Live TV within Sage or any other PVR. Don't confuse the newbies. Live TV is "recorded TV" whether you use a TIVO, Directv PVR, Sage, Beyond, or other PVR machine. Everything you watch in "Live TV" is actually a recording (with a delay) to allow you to pause (while you go to the bathroom or grab a beer), or "rewind" and playback something you missed or want to view again, or simply save a recording of what you are watching. It requires your have a separate "tuner" for every show (on a different channel) that you want to "watch" or "record" at the same time that you are watching what you are currently watching or recording (for some reason that wording sound stupid to me but whatever). What this means to anyone who wants to dive deep into this and spend the upfront cost to join is that based on the above. If your family is like my family this will require more than (2) tuners/receivers (for dish networks), plus mucho hard drive storage if you want to keep a recording of each favorite. In my case, my wife has about 120 Oprah and Dr Phil recordings that she promises she will watch and delete one day. I've gone from 400 to 800 to now 1TB hard disk storage for these habits. These habits COST MONEY!!!

And to think, "no one watches LiveTV" which per above IS NOT LiveTV is crazy if you come home at the end of the day and surf the Guide to find something you want to watch (which is what the average TV viewer does any day, every day). Now if you want to live your life with a 1 hour delay in watching everything you want to watch and have pleny money to add multiple tuners(with receivers if you use Directv or Dish), plus HDPVR's to go along with each receiver, plus mucho hard disk storage, AND have unlimited time and patience to make it all work, then what "snake oil" these guys are promoting will work for you. But if you are, what I consider the typical user, who only needs to watch one channel while recording another and have the capability to "pause" or "rewind" what you are watching, then you ain't gonna be happy with how SageTV works today with HD tuners like the HDPVR. If you like to watch LiveTV (which described above is not LiveTV) you will experience aggrivating 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the hour and 1/2 hour when the channel you're watching move to the next program. This is a know problem in Sage when using HDPVR tuners. You might want to get Directv PVR's or TIVO's instead, In fact, the ONLY two reasons I'm still hanging in there with SageTV is:

1. I've got too much money invested already in my systems and will not recoup my loss to move to Directv PVR's. Plus I paid for a "working" system and I expect a "working" system.
2. I dig commercial skipping and with commercials vs programmed material increasing all of the time, I'm not sure I could live in a world again having to sit through each and every commercial while watching a movie.

I'm sorry, but I don't want to spend my life watching TV in a 1 hour delay nor do I want to spend college tuition or grocery money on a "Home Theater Hobby". I just want to watch what ever appeals to me at any given time while surfing the channel guide. I want it in HD with Dolby Digital audio. I want the video, as well as audio, crisp and clean all the time, every time. I feel I paid for software that promoted this.

Fuzzy, your perspecitve is from the Power User who lives on this forum monitoring and responding to day by day thread input. Your perspective is clouded and driven by the other Power users like you. The new guys and part time forum users who look for help fall into your thinking (not knowing any better). This is sad IMHO.

Paulbeers, you must hang out alot with Fuzzy.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by sportera

And to think, "no one watches LiveTV" which per above IS NOT LiveTV is crazy if you come home at the end of the day and surf the Guide to find something you want to watch (which is what the average TV viewer does any day, every day).

We're not the "average TV viewer", the "average TV viewer" rents a DVR from the cable/sat company or doesn't have a DVR at all, doesn't know anything about SageTV but has probably heard of Tivo (though likely never used it).

We are here because we were not satisfied with the recording functionality of cable/sat DVRs and/or Tivos. So almost by definition the SageTV user is probably more a recording viewer than a "live TV" viewer.

With a good PVR setup, you don't browse the guide looking for something merely acceptable to watch, you browse the list of recordings you actually like and pick something you really want to see.

Now if you want to live your life with a 1 hour delay in watching everything you want to watch and have pleny money to add multiple tuners(with receivers if you use Directv or Dish), plus HDPVR's to go along with each receiver, plus mucho hard disk storage, AND have unlimited time and patience to make it all work, then what "snake oil" these guys are promoting will work for you.

First things first, you don't have to wait for a recording to complete to watch it, you can watch it as it's recording very easily.

Second, you seem to grossly misunderstand the real meaning/implications of "not watching live TV" are. It's something I think many, if not most PVR users find, and that is that a good PVR completely frees you from the broadcaster's linear programming special.

There are a lot of shows I watch that I haven't the foggiest clue when they actually air. I've told Sage to record them, it does (whenever they happen to air) and there's always a few of them around for me to watch when I want to.

I still watch stuff when it airs on occasion, but usually I watch it with at least a 15 minute delay so I can skip over commercials (automatically ). More often though I tend to watch stuff the next evening, since a lot of my favorites tend to be recorded late at night.

The point is not that you need to change the way you think/act, it's that based on our experience, we've found that generally, when you've got a good PVR (be it Sage, Tivo, whatever) when you are no longer tied to the broadcast schedule, you find more stuff you like (stuff that airs when you're not around) and that once you have a catalog of stuff you like, there's no more need to just watch something "acceptable" only because it's on, because there's always something you really like already recorded.

But if you are, what I consider the typical user, who only needs to watch one channel while recording another and have the capability to "pause" or "rewind" what you are watching, then you ain't gonna be happy with how SageTV works today with HD tuners like the HDPVR. If you like to watch LiveTV (which described above is not LiveTV) you will experience aggrivating 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the hour and 1/2 hour when the channel you're watching move to the next program. This is a know problem in Sage when using HDPVR tuners. You might want to get Directv PVR's or TIVO's instead,...

Quite frankly, if that's all you want you should be using your providers DVR. It will do everything you need, it will be cheaper, and it will have no setup.

If Dish's DVRs weren't sorely lacking in recording features (space, management, multi-room viewing) I would be using them today.

In fact, the ONLY two reasons I'm still hanging in there with SageTV is:

1. I've got too much money invested already in my systems and will not recoup my loss to move to Directv PVR's.

FWIW, one of the first things we were tought in our Engineering Economics course was to forget about money already invested. It's gone, there's nothing you can do about it. You must make your decision based on current conditions and current costs/benefits. If you're unhappy with your Sage setup and a DTV DVR will wholly fulfill your needs, switch. I'm a big Sage fan, but it's not for everyone, you've really got to want more than a Dish/DTV/Cable DVR provides for it to make sense.

Plus I paid for a "working" system and I expect a "working" system.

Lets just clarify something here, you paid for an application, but you have to integrate it with your chosen hardware and software into a working system.

If Sage sold a box with tuners that you just plug your sources into, that would be a "working system" that you purchased.

2. I dig commercial skipping and with commercials vs programmed material increasing all of the time, I'm not sure I could live in a world again having to sit through each and every commercial while watching a movie.

I'm sorry, but I don't want to spend my life watching TV in a 1 hour delay nor do I want to spend college tuition or grocery money on a "Home Theater Hobby". I just want to watch what ever appeals to me at any given time while surfing the channel guide. I want it in HD with Dolby Digital audio. I want the video, as well as audio, crisp and clean all the time, every time.

Then in all seriousness, you really should just switch. What you want is exactly what a DirecTV DVR will give you. You don't seem to want any of the extra functionality Sage offers, and you aren't willing to pay the integration price to get there.

I fee I paid for software that promoted this.

Live TV is an incredibly small part of a PC based DVR/PVR system, likewise Sage is only one component of said system.

Fuzzy, your perspecitve is from the Power User who lives on this forum monitoring and responding to day by day thread input. Your perspective is clouded and driven by the other Power users like you. The new guys and part time forum users who look for help fall into your thinking (not knowing any better).

SageTV is designed, 100% specifically for the "Power User". Every provider out there, Dish, DTV, Cable, everyone offers a box (for a low fee) that lets you watch liveTV and record the stuff you're going to miss.

Sage isn't trying to compete with that, they can't, there's no way for them to win against something that the TV providers rent out for probably what it costs Sage for guide data. Just look at Tivo and how pathetic they're doing trying to compete against the cable/sat DVR for the "average user".

SageTV is designed for people who want what is impossible with cable/sat DVRs. SageTV is for those who want multiroom viewing, robust recording management, unlimited storage, unlimited tuners, integrated media playback/access. SageTV is for those who want a whole-house media system.

Seriously here, I'm really not trying to just brush you off because you don't agree. If you dropped into this forum (or AVS forum, or whatever) and asked if you should invest in a SageTV system or stick with a DirecTV DVR, and gave the description you did above about how you want to use it, I'd tell you that no, Sage isn't for you. Sage is an Enthusiast/"Power User" product for those types of people with those types of requirements.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by sportera

You guys kill me (ha ha)...

Live TV IS NOT Live TV within Sage or any other PVR.

I would add my rebuttal to your post, but I think Stanger already got it all of it. With the exception that:

When we discuss "Live TV" on these forums we all know the difference between true Live TV and "Live TV" via a PVR.

My advise is the same as Stanger in that a Tivo or DVR would be your best bet. This software was really designed to be a Media Center and recordings really are best looked at additional "media" that was once available via Cable/Satellite/OTA/etc.

[sportera]

Well put stanger89. I know when to bow down to reason and "stand corrected". I appologize for some of my rash statements and will try not to bash anyone of you Power Users again. Your statement that SageTV IS for power users is a very correct statement. My comments were made towards the average TIVO guy who saw the Sage add and gets suckered in to jumping into this head first not knowing the backend hardware costs and time he will spend to make it do what you guys promote vs just sticking with a TIVO or Directv PVR.

My only two comments that I will stand on:
1. The 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the 1/2 hour and hour when using the HDPVR (a product Sage sells and should support the application) is an annoyance, and should be priority one in getting fixed.
2. I would call myself a "semi-power user". I'll hang in there as long as I can stand it because I do like some of perks with the system and have the equipment already.

And just to go on record with you guys, I've been building and using computers for +20 years now, before Windows or DOS, when the operating system was CPM. I've spent +20 years in the designing, installing, and programming of commercial building automations systems and have my home automated, i.e., I do have a just a litte technical experience. If I speak rashly sometimes about a product, it is because I had to stand behind the products I've sold and installed for many years, even when the devices had flaws that I did not know about before installing them. That's business. You support what you sell. When you stop doing that, you start losing customers.

No more response on this from me in this thread. I've taken away from it too much already.

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by sportera

My only two comments that I will stand on:
1. The 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the 1/2 hour and hour when using the HDPVR (a product Sage sells and should support the application) is an annoyance, and should be priority one in getting fixed.

The issue with #1 is that it isn't a "Problem" - it is a design feature. Some may not agree with that design feature, but that is the way SageTV works at this time.

It all comes back to how the software system buffers the content it is recording. SageTV has decided to buffer 100% of the show that is currently being watched. Think of it as a linear buffering system - it records everything from start to finish for each show. Other DVR programs have a circular buffer that only stores the last XX minutes and is constantly overwriting that buffer with new material.

What this means is that other programs don't see this "pause" when the system starts a new show or you change the channel because it is constantly overwriting a single file. But if you are 45 minutes into a hour long show and you try to rewind it or save it, you'll generally only be able to go back about 30 minutes.

With SageTV, if I had watched 6 hours of the Olympic coverage and wanted to go back and see something that occured in the first 5 minutes, I could do that. Or I could press the record button and it would save the entire show - going back all 6 hours from when I started watching.

One can argue that one way of buffering is better than the other, but this is how SageTV operates currently. It is not a bug or issue that needs to be fixed. The only option would be for SageTV to move to a cyclical buffering system instead of a linear buffering system.

[sportera]

Originally Posted by sic0048

The issue with #1 is that it isn't a "Problem" - it is a design feature. Some may not agree with that design feature, but that is the way SageTV works at this time.

I understand what you are saying (I think), but my reasoning behind saying "something is broke" is that the prior 2 years I used Sage with my (2) Directv receivers connected through S-Video and RCA audio to a nVidia Dual-TV PC card tuner, there WAS NO 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the hour and 1/2 hour while watching a channel. There was maybe a 1/2 second delay. The same for the year prior to that when I was with cable. This "problem" appeared when I went to true HD by replacing the nVidia Dual-TV tuner with (2) Hauppauge HDPVR's. And from what I've read in this forum it isn't just me with the "problem" and complaining about the "problem".

My point being...if Sage did not sell the HDPVR, and/or made a statement that it didn't support the HDPVR, I'd have to accept it, live with it, and keep my mouth shut, but.....Sage sells the HDPVR to complement the systems they sell. Therefore if a product they sell contributes to a flaw in either the product or the system, then I feel someone needs to address it. In other words, support the systems you promote and sell across the board.

Why do some of you keep trying to sweep this under the rug hoping it will go away? I really cannot believe, this issue does not aggrivate the hell out of many users as much as it aggrivates me and my spouse. If I could fix it, I would. From what I'm reading, it appears that some have just adjusted to recording everything and watching it later to avoid the "problem". I don't want to do that, nor can I believe the majority of users out there want to do that. I know I can go back and find the users who posted the same feelings on this subject if I had to.

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by sportera

I understand what you are saying (I think), but my reasoning behind saying "something is broke" is that the prior 2 years I used Sage with my (2) Directv receivers connected through S-Video and RCA audio to a nVidia Dual-TV PC card tuner, there WAS NO 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the hour and 1/2 hour while watching a channel. There was maybe a 1/2 second delay.

But there was a pause/delay with your previous set up. Do you actually think that Sage has added some sort of "extra delay" into their system just for fun during the last year or two? Of course not. Obviously, something in the process regarding the HD-PVR takes more time to rebuild the direct show graph after breaking it down and restarting the buffer. I bet initial tuning on the HD-PVR also takes more time than the older card you were using. But that isn't a "bug" or a "problem with Sage". I'm not arguing that it is not an annoyance, but there simply isn't anything SageTV can do without changing how it buffers recordings (ie going from a linear system to a circular system).

I just don't understand what you want SageTV to do?? They cannot fix something that isn't really broken. If you want the pause to be quicker, then talk to Hauppauge about tweaking the HD-PVR to make it tune faster (if it is even possible).

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by sic0048

The issue with #1 is that it isn't a "Problem" - it is a design feature. Some may not agree with that design feature, but that is the way SageTV works at this time.

FWIW, I'd say it (the pause) is an undesirable consequence of a design decision which thus far has not be undesirable "enough" to warrant fixing, for all the reasons that are usually given "defending" it.

Sage's design doesn't necessitate a "pause" but given that it's still there after 6 versions of Sage makes be estimate that it's not a simple matter to fix.

Originally Posted by sportera

I understand what you are saying (I think), but my reasoning behind saying "something is broke" is that the prior 2 years I used Sage with my (2) Directv receivers connected through S-Video and RCA audio to a nVidia Dual-TV PC card tuner, there WAS NO 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the hour and 1/2 hour while watching a channel. There was maybe a 1/2 second delay.

Sage added a 4 second delay after tuning the HD PVR sometime while they were integrating it into Sage. The reason is the HD PVR is (or at least was) quite sensitive to stream interruptions and it could be rather unreliable with no tuning delay. The delay is Sage working around "quirks" with the HD PVR.

Originally when I setup my HD PVR there was no extra delay and I had a not insignificant number of problems I changed the setting at the suggestion of Sage support and the problems cleared up.

If you're looking for trouble the setting is delay_to_wait_after_tuning in the sage.properties file. It should be set to 4000 (milliseconds). You can reduce it if you want but be on the lookout for stability reliability issues.

My point being...if Sage did not sell the HDPVR, and/or made a statement that it didn't support the HDPVR, I'd have to accept it, live with it, and keep my mouth shut, but.....Sage sells the HDPVR to complement the systems they sell.

They sell it, and they support it to the extent possible given the functionality of the product. IMO it's better to have support for it, even if it's got some quirks, than to not support it at all, especially given no real alternatives.

Why do some of you keep trying to sweep this under the rug hoping it will go away? I really cannot believe, this issue does not aggrivate the hell out of many users as much as it aggrivates me and my spouse.

Like we've said, most of us have found that Sage (any good PVR really) has changed the way we watch TV. Since we've got a large library of stuff we actually like, we don't just pick merely acceptable shows from the guide, and since we rarely watch TV live, we're not impacted by the pause, even the longer HD PVR one.

If I could fix it, I would. From what I'm reading, it appears that some have just adjusted to recording everything and watching it later to avoid the "problem".

Try not to think of it as "adjusting to recording everything", because that's not how we see it. We haven't learned to work around problems or limitations. On the contrary we've found that with a large collection of pre-recorded content, we just have no desire to watch stuff live anymore.

If you've got 400 hours of recorded content, that's all stuff you either specifically asked Sage to record (because you like it) or it recorded based on your habits (IR), who needs to settle for something just because it's on.

I don't want to do that, nor can I believe the majority of users out there want to do that. I know I can go back and find the users who posted the same feelings on this subject if I had to.

You're definitely not the only one that dislikes "the pause" (there's have been a number of threads on the topic), but I honestly think live TV is not a primary use for Sage for most users. Because like I said my first response, Sage isn't built for that and I really don't think many people are going to seek out a PC based "DIY" solution just to watch TV live. I just don't see it.

[bialio]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

I would also like to state that most of the people I know with a DVR of any type (whether it is Sage, DVR or Tivo) all eventually migrate away from live tv. Isn't that the point of a DVR? It is rare for anyone that I know to watch stuff live unless it is News or Sports (I have even gone to timeshifting the News as well!).

So I would contend that MOST users of a DVR don't watch much live tv. If I polled all my friends with DVR's, I bet you that they do 80%+ of their viewing as previously recorded shows.

Everyone has different watching patterns of course, but I'd say that shows that people are "TIVO"ing are almost never watched live - while other content IS. At our house we frequently have Food Network or HGTV turned on live, and we're not 'recording' shows because we like them, we just watch whatever happens to be on. Same for kids shows.

I think DVR's drive people to record shows that they watch every week - especially shows they don't want to MISS - thus freeing them from the serial live schedule of the networks. But I don't think you can say really that DVR's drive people away from Live TV in general.

I am sure there are people out there don't do ANY live TV - and some that do all. I think most households probably have a mix.

btl.

[bialio]

There's no denying that there's a rather vocal majority here on the Sage forums that think Live TV is for losers

[sic0048]

Originally Posted by sic0048

But there was a pause/delay with your previous set up. Do you actually think that Sage has added some sort of "extra delay" into their system just for fun during the last year or two?

Originally Posted by stanger89

Sage added a 4 second delay after tuning the HD PVR sometime while they were integrating it into Sage. The reason is the HD PVR is (or at least was) quite sensitive to stream interruptions and it could be rather unreliable with no tuning delay. The delay is Sage working around "quirks" with the HD PVR.

Well I guess I was wrong then I guess there is a SageTV self imposed delay in the whole process. But I would still stick to my original arguement that it wasn't done just for fun. If the HD-PVR isn't stable without the 4 second delay, that still isn't really a SageTV problem - it is a Hauppauge problem.

[wayner]

The other problem that you can get without the delay, at least if you don't fix your box to one video output type, is that the HD-PVR will start recording before the channel change occurs and the video format can change, from say 480p to 1080i upon the channel change. This screws up most (but not Sage) media player. When I try to play one of these files in VLC it either doesn't play at all or it crops the file and you only see the top left quadrant of the picture.

[sportera]

Originally Posted by sportera

My only two comments that I will stand on:
1. The 3-5 second video freeze and audio studder on the 1/2 hour and hour when using the HDPVR (a product Sage sells and should support the application) is an annoyance, and should be priority one in getting fixed.

I"m going back to all my posts on this subject and letting everyone know that most of my (below) issues were caused by my not following published install directions. I found a fix to many of my problems. The "TURN UAC OFF" is one that needs to be put in bold print somewhere. Sometimes you just have to sit down and read the SageTV Manual. See post #2 in below link....

http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47885

I still have the 2-5 second "pause" that everyone else is complaining about, but the screen freeze / audio studder on the hour and 1/2 hour, and when changing channels, is gone.

The 10-seconds of "black" screen, when changing channels, (this was a new one after going from W7 64bit to 32bit) went away.

My SageClient.properties file is back in the SageTV/SageTV directory where it belongs.(UAC related)

The "Check for STV update" is back in Detailed Setup/Advanced section so I could bring the client STV's up to date. (UAC related)

I can now use the Microsoft DTV-DVD H.264 codec without getting "jerky" video. The ArcSoft and CoreAVC codecs worked great but I think I get a litter better video performance and sharper video with the MS codecs.

I can run SageMC again. The 2-5 second "pause" is the same whether I run the vanilla STV or SageMC. The only difference is you get the "...tuning channel pop up..." with the vanilla STV where with SageMC you get 2-5 seconds of nothing where you're not sure if the channel change is coming or not. I know SageMC has scaled back but I sure wish someone would add an hour glass or pop up or something to let you know your "first press of the button" was picked up, "wait", "don't press it again".

System seems to run much better as a whole. I hope in some way my "fix" gets spread around. It might save someone else the 3 months of pain and aggrivation I went through.

Now if only someone in Sage development has taken the time to read the numerous posts, including the "user voting post"(below), on "the PAUSE", life would really be great. If you haven't voted yet, please go to the link below and voice your opinion.
http://forums.sagetv.com/forums/show...ighlight=pause