Digital Cutover: Lost Channels?

[PeteCress]

Post-digital-cutover here in Phila PA (USA), even our converter boxes lost a number of channels (6.1, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, 17.1 ... and maybe a few more).

After awhile, I had the converter box re-scan it's channels and all was well again.

But SageTV is still saying "No Signal" for those channels.

I re-scanned all four tuners on my HD HomeRuns - while the SageTV service was stopped - but to no avail.

But when I check the channels directly via the HD HomeRun Setup application, channel 12.1, at least, seems alive and well and I'm able to watch it via VLC MediaPlayer.

Can anybody explain what happened coincident with the cutover?

And what am I doing wrong/not doing right vis-a-vis those channels that Sage says "No Signal" for?

OOPS!.... after posting this, I realized that I failed to do a SageTV | Setup | Setup Video Sources | Channel Setup | Scan Gor Available Channels - but I did that for all four tuners and no improvement.

The question of what happened coincident with the cutover remains, however.

[carlgar]

Just speculation, but I suspect the channels you lost moved to new channel numbers. I know at least 2 of my stations are moving. I have cable so I cannot tell if they will or not. But they are low numbers and I noticed that your lost channels are also low. I believe the FCC is clearing the low numbers for other uses.

[jarredduq]

I running into the same issue as well...

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by carlgar

Just speculation, but I suspect the channels you lost moved to new channel numbers. I know at least 2 of my stations are moving. I have cable so I cannot tell if they will or not. But they are low numbers and I noticed that your lost channels are also low. I believe the FCC is clearing the low numbers for other uses.

But shouldn't rescanning by the tuner cards followed by re-scanning by SageTV fix that?

You've got me thinking that I'm doing something wrong so that SageTV is not getting the latest-and-greatest scan info from the HD HomeRun tuners.

FWIW, SageTV runs as a service and I *did* have the service stopped while the scans were done.

Is there something else I could have messed up?

Probably.... but what?

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by jarredduq

I running into the same issue as well...

News Flash: After stopping SageTV, having the tuners re-scan, and then starting SageTV and telling it to re-scan.....and the problem persisting... Just on GPs, I re-booted the server.

Now all is well.

[carlgar]

I would expect so, but I do not know how Sage gets the channel info for OTA. Since the HDHR finds the channels, I would look at the channel numbers that it shows for the problem channels. I think they would have changed, if not then I have no idea how to fix it. If they did change then you need to make sure Sage has the Same physical channel numbers as the HDHR. I suspect Sage is using numbers from the EPG which came from zap2it and may not be updated yet.

[carlgar]

FYI: You may encounter this same issue tomorrow. Stations are not required to kill their analog signal until midnight tonight. Therefore, you may still be getting some stations not will not move until then. I just happen to be watching the news for one of the stations that announced they will be moving. They stated that you should rescan for channels again on Saturday. Yesterday, they stated that they were remain broadcasting analog upto the last minute allowed.

[matt91]

When are the frequency shifts going to be completed? Sat morning at 0001? Or will they be happening throughout the day on Sat? Later?

Bottom line question: At what point should my rescan capture all local frequency shifts?

[carlgar]

You should be safe to rescan now. My local station that stated it would broadcast analog upto the last minute has the following posting on its website:
NASHVILLE, Tenn. - At 11:59 p.m. on Friday, June 12, WKRN-TV stopped analog broadcast service and will now transmit only in digital.

[willieb]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

Now all is well.

Pete,

I'm in Haverford. Are you now getting all channels perfectly again? My setup is telling me Channel 6 is being broadcast on 6-0-1 at only 20% power, so I cannot tune it. Before yesterday I always got it 100% (for the past 2 yrs). This makes me think Channel 6 is having some problems. Do you get it fine on Sage now?

My other question is whether the guide data "re-found" all the new channels in the right places. I rescanned, but all my old channels stayed where they used to be and the new ones showed up only as numbers (so instead of saying WCAU-DT, it said 34-0-1 with no call sign designation).

I guess I could just remove the lineup all together and then start over, but I would like to know SOMEONE has it all back up and running before I go to the trouble. Thanks.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by willieb

Pete,

I'm in Haverford. Are you now getting all channels perfectly again? My setup is telling me Channel 6 is being broadcast on 6-0-1 at only 20% power, so I cannot tune it. Before yesterday I always got it 100% (for the past 2 yrs). This makes me think Channel 6 is having some problems. Do you get it fine on Sage now?

My other question is whether the guide data "re-found" all the new channels in the right places. I rescanned, but all my old channels stayed where they used to be and the new ones showed up only as numbers (so instead of saying WCAU-DT, it said 34-0-1 with no call sign designation).

I guess I could just remove the lineup all together and then start over, but I would like to know SOMEONE has it all back up and running before I go to the trouble. Thanks.

I *think* I'm up and running 100%.

Specifically, 6.1 seems tb coming in ok via Sage.

Here's what I see on the HD HomeRun Config and Sage screens:

[jarredduq]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

I *think* I'm up and running 100%.

Specifically, 6.1 seems tb coming in ok via Sage.

Here's what I see on the HD HomeRun Config and Sage screens:

Can you post your frq file? I've been having problems with re-scanning my channels, and want to see an example of one with somebody who has a working configuration.

Thank you,

Jarred

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by jarredduq

.. frq file?

Here's the one from the first of 4 tuners.

Paoli PA (USA), about 23 miles West of Philadelphia.
-----------------------------------------------------
VERSION 3.0, country:United States of America
TYPE ATSC

#fec_rate: 1:fec1/2, 2:fec2/3, 3:fec3/4, 4:fec3/5, 5:fec4/5, 6:fec5/6, 7:fec5/11, 8:fec7/8 9:fec1/4 10:fec1/3
# 11:fec2/5 12:fec6/7 13:fec8/9 14:fec8/9 15:max
#fec: 1:VBC, 2:RS/2048, 3:maximum
#polarisation: 1:linear_H, 2:Linear_V, 3:Circular_L, 4:Circular_R
#modualtion: 1:16QAM:1, 2:32QAM, 3:64QAM, 4:80QAM, 5:96QAM, 6:112QAM, 7:128QAM, 8:160QAM, 9:192QAM, 10:224QAM,
# 11:256QAM, 12:320QAM, 13:384QAM, 14:448QAM, 15:512QAM, 16:640QAM, 17:768QAM, 18:896QAM, 19:1024QAM,
# 20:QPSK, 21:BPSK, 22:OQPSK, 23:8VSB:23, 24:16VSB 31:NBC_QPSK 32:NBC_8PSK
#ctrlbits: 0:diasable, 1:enable, 3:encrypted
#format:
CH:1 major:6 minor:1 prog:3 phy:6 frq:1 #:WPVI-HD
CH:2 major:6 minor:2 prog:4 phy:6 frq:1 #:WPVIHD2
CH:3 major:6 minor:3 prog:5 phy:6 frq:1 #:WPVI-WX
CH:4 major:60 minor:1 prog:3 phy:9 frq:1 #:WBPH-D1
CH:5 major:60 minor:2 prog:4 phy:9 frq:1 #:WBPH-D2
CH:6 major:12 minor:1 prog:3 phy:12 frq:1 #:WHYY-1
CH:7 major:12 minor:2 prog:4 phy:12 frq:1 #:Y-Arts
CH:8 major:12 minor:3 prog:5 phy:12 frq:1 #:Y-Info
CH:9 major:17 minor:2 prog:4 phy:17 frq:1 #:ThisTV
CH:10 major:17 minor:1 prog:3 phy:17 frq:1 #:WPHL-DT
CH:11 major:23 minor:1 prog:1 phy:22 frq:1 #:WNJS-DT
CH:12 major:23 minor:2 prog:2 phy:22 frq:1 #:NJN-2
CH:13 major:51 minor:1 prog:3 phy:25 frq:1 #:WTVE-TV
CH:14 major:3 minor:1 prog:1 phy:26 frq:1 #:KYW-DT
CH:15 major:48 minor:1 prog:3 phy:27 frq:1 #:WGTW-D1
CH:16 major:48 minor:2 prog:4 phy:27 frq:1 #:WGTW-D2
CH:17 major:48 minor:3 prog:5 phy:27 frq:1 #:WGTW-D3
CH:18 major:48 minor:4 prog:6 phy:27 frq:1 #:WGTW-D4
CH:19 major:48 minor:5 prog:7 phy:27 frq:1 #:WGTW-D5
CH:20 major:0 minor:1 prog:3 phy:31 frq:1 #TV31.1
CH:21 major:57 minor:1 prog:1 phy:32 frq:1 #:WPSG-DT
CH:22 major:10 minor:1 prog:3 phy:34 frq:1 #:WCAU-DT
CH:23 major:10 minor:2 prog:4 phy:34 frq:1 #:NBCPlus
CH:24 major:10 minor:3 prog:5 phy:34 frq:1 #:USports
CH:25 major:35 minor:1 prog:3 phy:35 frq:1 #:MiND---
CH:26 major:35 minor:2 prog:4 phy:35 frq:1 #:glbMiND
CH:27 major:35 minor:3 prog:5 phy:35 frq:1 #:MiNDMHz
CH:28 major:29 minor:1 prog:3 phy:42 frq:1 #:WTXFDT-
CH:29 major:65 minor:1 prog:1 phy:66 frq:1 #:WUVP-DT
CH:30 major:65 minor:2 prog:2 phy:66 frq:1 #:WFPA-CA
-----------------------------------------------------

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by PeteCress

The question of what happened coincident with the cutover remains, however.

Here's the best answer I've gotten - after trolling the HDTV NG. Got a couple other good ones, but this one is the most complete:

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Post-cutover, we lost channels 6.x, 10.x, 12.x and 17.x on our
> converter box.
>
> 3.1 and 29.1, for two, seemed tb unaffected.
>
> Waited a few hours, and when the missing channels did not come back; I had the converter box re-scan... and they all came back.
>
> Can anybody elucidate as to what happened there?

Channels 6, 10, 12, and 17 moved to new frequencies last night; channels 3 and 29 didn't.

Channels 6, 10, and 17 were operating interim digital operations on channels "outside core", channels that have been sold for commercial land-mobile operation. They would not be allowed to remain on those interim channels.

Channel 12 was also assigned an interim channel "outside core". The firm that bought their interim channel paid them to move early to a second interim channel that wasn't covering very well. (interference from North Jersey and Washington DC, I'd imagine) They too were required to change frequency.

> Did anybody else experience this?

Here in Nashville, channels 5 and 8 moved to new frequencies last night
- anyone who didn't rescan overnight lost CBS and PBS.

-
Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View, TN EM66

[willieb]

Thanks for the replies Pete. If you are getting channel 6 well, you are definitely in the minority. After doing some research, I have learned that 6 is broadcasting on a really low powered signal on 6 VHF. It seems MANY people are unable to get the signal at all. I actually went outside of sage and just tried to tune my TVs' digital tuners and noe of them found Ch. 6. Anybody who wants to read more comments from other 6 viewers, see all the comments on their page here.

[PeteCress]

Originally Posted by willieb

If you are getting channel 6 well, you are definitely in the minority.

My Channel 6.1 is clearly viewable (no artifacts AFIK), but according to HDHomeRun it's signal is not up to par:
Strength=79
Quality=56

That's compared to 12.1's
Strength=100
Quality=(low nineties)

and 3.1's
Strength=100
Quality=95-100

In our area (Paoli, a little south of 252 Lancaster Ave) analog channel 3 was barely viewable and 6 was no prize.

[VCRUser]

I was able to get 6 on the rabbit ears, but not on the attic antenna, which is a larger, multi-element setup. The attic antenna, OTOH, does well with 29, 3, 10, and even 12, which I hadn't been able to get before it moved. We did a lot of antenna-moving ("how does that look?" "better" "how is it now" "worse", etc. hollered between attic and server-room). So I think I'm going to put the attic antenna on one of my 2 950 ATSC tuners and the rabbit ears on the other. One of those tuners can also do QAM, so if I get too frustrated, I'll connect it to the cable. I've been slowly mapping the QAM on my 1600, but several of those channels moved also. One odd thing: BRAVO used to have a digital presence, as well as analog, but now I can't find the digital version, so I get ithe analog version on the NTSC cable tuner on the 1600.

[laurenglenn]

Maybe I was lucky, but I live in the Philly area and didn't have to rescan for anything yet. The computer is using two Hauppauge HVR1600 tuners.

It's also recording the remnants of analog cable on the analog coax lines, so it can record 4 tuners. The cable box is also added as a 5th tuner which SageTV will use the composite input when it's recording channels that are specific to the cable box..... (didn't know it could do that, but it was cool to find out it did)

QAM also works on one of them but Comcast's signal strength is too low here.

Lauren

[VCRUser]

Originally Posted by laurenglenn

The cable box is also added as a 5th tuner which SageTV will use the composite input when it's recording channels that are specific to the cable box..... (didn't know it could do that, but it was cool to find out it did)

Interesting! I don't have a cable box (yet), but I'd be interested how you set it up for that.

[Fuzzy]

I'd like to point out that for ATSC, with the new HDHomeRun Drivers and new version of sage, the scanning can be done completely within sage. ATSC doesnt' use .frq files in the new drivers, so you just set up the hdhomerun for Digital Antenna, and SageTV, then in sage, add the tuner, and scan from there. Works great!

Also, another note to some people out there... a lot of stations around the country have moved their digital broadcast back to the frequency that their analog was using. If they were in VHF-Hi originally (7-13), and you've been using a UHF only antenna to get their UHF Digital feed, odds are you won't be able to get them again until you get a VHF/UHF or VHF-Hi/UHF antenna. I know in the LA area, channels 7,9,11 and 13 have all moved digital back to VHF, and as such, lots of people who've been happily getting those stations on their UHF digital, are now without them.