Really tired of hack jobs... Anyone else?

[PAF]

After poking around for about an hour or two with trying to get fan art and DVD covers and banners to work properly after upgrading to the latest betas for Sage and SageMC because it was decided that for some damn reason the central folder would now be different... (don't me started on the change...)

I start thinking about how much time I spend on this stuff. While the recording portion of the Sage application works great along with the stream to the 2 extenders I have, a lot of the meta data and fan art and the GUI items and video conversions and web servers... you know... the good stuff, is quite the hurdle to get working. Once you do get it working, something always manages not to work properly...

In other words, this is great stuff, but at what cost? While the scripts the developers make on this website are great, it is time consuming as heck...

I am probably just venting right now but I really thought about just throwing everything out the window and getting a dumb Tivo box... and I work as a desktop architect for lots and lots of machines... granted windows only. I can only imagine what people feel like who don't do computer stuff for a living.

My proposition... Thinking back to how installing programs on the windows platform was a disaster before Windows Installer came around... I propose that Sage should really implement some kinds of standards when it comes to making modifications to sage. That is, either an approval system, some kinds of standards and goal in mind. I believe that if the Sage developers worked a bit more closely with the people on the boards, perhaps even create an app. store (?), the product would become more stable and much less frustrating to the average user, not to mention the added features it would bring.

Any thoughts on this or anyone else want to share their threshold experience with mods to Sage?

[Brent]

You do know that the fan art and extra metadata stuff is in early development at the moment right? The add-ons that allow these things have come a long way in a short amount of time and the focus has been towards making it all work together the best way possible and in the end making things much easier to set up and use.

So my advice to you would be this. Given your frustration, don't be in a rush to try the latest add-on. Sit back and enjoy things a bit while you wait for the developers work their tails off to make things better.

Was there something in particular that you're having trouble with? By the way, I like the idea of an app store if by that you mean searching for and installing add-ins through the UI. Not sure if that would work with SageTV because of Java, but I could be wrong.

[Wheemer]

Cutting edge stuff always takes longer to get the hang of. That's the price you pay for have the latest greatest PVR option available.

The person that is the opposite of you is the type that want full control and the ability to customize things. That's what sage offers... I'm not so sure what a desktop architect is, but anyone who works with computer hardware or software knows that you need to have patience... It might take a while to get things setup, but when it's all done there is a sense of accomplishment that comes along with it.

I don't really care how long it takes me to get these plugins working, because I know that I am one of the TV watching elite. Not some Joe Blow who only knows the channel up and down on the remote.

Besides commercial detection and skipping alone is worth any amount of pain with setup.

Think of all the time you save skipping directly past the commecials!

[Wheemer]

I should also add that I think it is disrespectful to call any of the SageTV community developers work "Hack Jobs"

[cslatt]

Originally Posted by mlody11

I am probably just venting right now but I really thought about just throwing everything out the window and getting a dumb Tivo box...

If you're going to be a jerk toward people who work, without pay, for the good of the rest of us, then please, do us all a favor and get a Tivo.

[GKusnick]

There's not a lot the Sage devs can do to guarantee the quality of plugins without investing inordinate amounts of their own time in testing and validating plugins. A WHQL-style certification process doesn't really seem practical for a small company like Sage.

Without that, the burden is on you to sort out the reliable plugins from the hack jobs. My advice is that before you try any plugin, read the author's post history on the Studio forum to get a sense of how they learned to make plugins. If they ask sensible questions and seem to understand the answers, that's a good sign. If it seems like they're just fumbling around without any real clue of what they're doing, stay clear.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by mlody11

After poking around for about an hour or two with trying to get fan art and DVD covers and banners to work properly after upgrading to the latest betas for Sage and SageMC because it was decided that for some damn reason the central folder would now be different... (don't me started on the change...)

The fact that you NEED that latest BETA of a Sage to fully enjoy the new fanart stuff, should have been a sign that things were not going to work as you expected. In 6months or year from now, the new fanart stuff will be very stable, with lots of new features that were never possible before. My suggestion -- revert back to your last stable build, wait a year, and then try the fanart again... by then it will stable, and myself, and the other "hack jobs" in the customization community will have moved on the next big hack.

In other words, this is great stuff, but at what cost? While the scripts the developers make on this website are great, it is time consuming as heck...

Nobody is asking you to install the "hacks"? Again, your sage can be just like a tivo... just don't mess with it.

I am probably just venting right now but I really thought about just throwing everything out the window and getting a dumb Tivo box...

This is the pack of a being a "hack" that I like.... If i worked for SageTV, then I'd have to say something like, "I know there some issues, but we are very commited to ensuring that you have best possible tv experience. We value your business and your commitment to our product. We will do better", but since I'm just hacking here... I can say, "Do me a favour, and get a tivo, or at the very least... don't use my stuff.".

My proposition... Thinking back to how installing programs on the windows platform was a disaster before Windows Installer came around...

Don't even get me started on how bad the windows installer is....

I propose that Sage should really implement some kinds of standards when it comes to making modifications to sage. That is, either an approval system, some kinds of standards and goal in mind. I believe that if the Sage developers worked a bit more closely with the people on the boards, perhaps even create an app. store (?), the product would become more stable and much less frustrating to the average user, not to mention the added features it would bring.

So you want it work like the apple app store.... I pay a fee to develop free applications for SageTV. I then invest lots of time to develop such application. I then have SageTV tell me that they've rejected my application for some unknown reason. I then go back to step 1. It's crazy, but it just might work.

[stuckless]

Originally Posted by Brent

By the way, I like the idea of an app store if by that you mean searching for and installing add-ins through the UI. Not sure if that would work with SageTV because of Java, but I could be wrong.

Brent, just clarify something here... An app store as it works on Apple, Android, and Blackberry, can work simply because you are downloading self contained applications to an OS (much like you do on windows, etc). Sage isn't setup like an OS, but rather, just another application, and plugins sometimes need to contribute to core sage libraries in order to function. Because of this, we'll never have a true "app store" model for sagetv, but it has nothing to do with java, it's just because sage is an application. But, last year, I posted an article about "what i'd do differently if I were to redesign sage", and i mentioned at that time, "osgi". osgi would be a great technology to use to allow for dynamically loadable plugins (ie, install and uninstall without an application restart) So it is possible, but we probably won't see it happen in sage.

But a well written plugin manager, as opposed to an app store, would certainly make things easier for people. Sage has already started a very good process in their 6.5 builds where they intruded the concept of stv plugins with a plugin manager for loading and unloading stv plugins. It even detects changes to the plugins and rebuilds the stv when they change. It's very well done, and it's a great start on the whole plugin manager thing.

[paulbeers]

I actually appreciate the "hack jobs". Without them we wouldn't have SageMC, Comskip integration, etc. etc. While I don't use many plugins (for fear of killing the WAF), I appreciate anyone's attempts at bringing new features to Sage.

Hack jobs should only be pointed at those would are paid for software that doesn't work. None of the plugin / STV authors / etc. are guarenteed any money from me, so they do their work for the good of all of us and unfortunately their setups are most likely drastically different than mine so it isn't a surprise when it doesn't work right out of the box the first time....

Plugins are inherently betas. If one doesn't work, DON'T USE IT. Report your issue and try it at a later date.

[Wheemer]

I am sure all the inventors of todays great technologies at one time would have considered themselves "hacks".

I never want any would be developer discouraged. If you don't keep hacking away you'll never learn.

On a realisitic note, I don't think there are many mods that I'd even consider a hack at all.

I can't even remember installing a mod that caused any major problems with sage...

[Skirge01]

I'd love to see an integrated method of adding plug-ins via the UI. If they were categorized and had some screenshots with descriptions, we could browse them, select them, download and install--most of--them from the comfort of the couch. Obviously, some may need config files edited or ports forwarded, but many could probably "just work" after a restart.

IMHO, the "hack jobs" comment was completely out of line, though. This is what happens when people get upset and fire off an email or start a thread before calming down. It happens at work all the time. That's when people ask IT for the "unsend" button. Then your manager comes over and informs you that, "You need to work on your communication skills." You could have skipped the whole tirade and just come here suggesting an integrated plug-in system, which many of us would like to see. But, you didn't.

As others have said, you don't need to install these things. If you want simple, stable, and standard stuff, then stay stock. If you choose to install other things, then deal with the consequences and--nicely--ask for help when you need it. As much as I want to install it, I'm steering clear of the new GRS import for the moment because it's still so new. That said, anyone with a good backup system can take 10 minutes whenever they get stuck or frustrated, copy everything back over, and be up and running again.

[PGPfan]

Frankly I'm tired of people unable to control themselves and their tempers, and then come to a forum and 'crap' a bunch of comments without using tact and diplomacy. I hope we're all over 12 years old - and we certainly should know better than to behave in such a manner.

If you don't like what VOLUNTEER developers create, DON'T USE IT! If you are having trouble - ask for help as if you value the time of the person giving said help! Have a recommendation, give it - don't demand it.

For God's sake - treat others like you'd want to be treated! It's not hard to do (if you're not a kid under 12).

-PGPfan

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I'd love to see an integrated method of adding plug-ins via the UI. If they were categorized and had some screenshots with descriptions, we could browse them, select them, download and install--most of--them from the comfort of the couch.

I honestly don't see the value of this. You can already browse plugins by category, read descriptions, view screenshots, and download the installation packages perfectly well in a web browser. Installing a plugin is (or should be, if you value system stability) something you do rarely, after thorough research and carefully backing up your current configuration. It should definitely not be something you do on a daily basis, at whim, just to try out cool stuff. So an easy-to-use couch-potato plugin catalog integrated right into the SageTV UI seems like exactly the wrong approach from that perspective, and would likely create many more product support headaches than it would solve.

[Skirge01]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

It should definitely not be something you do on a daily basis, at whim, just to try out cool stuff.

Other than the "daily basis" part, isn't that precisely what we're all doing? We see something on the forums, think it's cool, and want to try it. For me, I have weekly, full backups and incremental, nightly backups running for the server and client, so I can restore to yesterday without any problems. A botched import doesn't concern me, but I realize I'm in the minority here.

I do all the reading on the forums on a different computer, then I decide I want to import something and go to the client to do so. Since I already know what I want, what it's called, and what's involved, having to use the remote to turn on the receiver and TV, then pull out the keyboard and mouse, shut down the Sage UI, bring up the forums, find the thread with the instructions, find the download, unzip to the Sage directory, bring up Sage again, and finally import the STVi... just seems like "a lot". Realistically, I know it's not all that much to do, but it is quite a few steps that need to be taken in various places. In my mind, I thought there might be a better way.

I do understand what you're saying, though. Given the lack of thought, consideration, patience, planning, backups, and understanding that so many Sage users seem to have, I may be sorely underestimating things. So, point taken...

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

I do all the reading on the forums on a different computer, then I decide I want to import something and go to the client to do so. Since I already know what I want, what it's called, and what's involved, having to use the remote to turn on the receiver and TV, then pull out the keyboard and mouse, shut down the Sage UI, bring up the forums, find the thread with the instructions, find the download, unzip to the Sage directory, bring up Sage again, and finally import the STVi... just seems like "a lot".

I think you could streamline that process a bit by doing the download on the PC where you do your forum browsing and using RDP to carry out the install without leaving your chair. That's the way I do it anyway.

[jvl711]

Originally Posted by Skirge01

Other than the "daily basis" part, isn't that precisely what we're all doing? We see something on the forums, think it's cool, and want to try it. For me, I have weekly, full backups and incremental, nightly backups running for the server and client, so I can restore to yesterday without any problems. A botched import doesn't concern me, but I realize I'm in the minority here.

I do all the reading on the forums on a different computer, then I decide I want to import something and go to the client to do so. Since I already know what I want, what it's called, and what's involved, having to use the remote to turn on the receiver and TV, then pull out the keyboard and mouse, shut down the Sage UI, bring up the forums, find the thread with the instructions, find the download, unzip to the Sage directory, bring up Sage again, and finally import the STVi... just seems like "a lot". Realistically, I know it's not all that much to do, but it is quite a few steps that need to be taken in various places. In my mind, I thought there might be a better way.

I do understand what you're saying, though. Given the lack of thought, consideration, patience, planning, backups, and understanding that so many Sage users seem to have, I may be sorely underestimating things. So, point taken...

As a plugin developer, I would not mind seeing an easier way for end users to consume my work. I understand that it might be extremely difficult or impossible to implement, but it would be a huge improvement. I think having an automated installer that was built into the front end would solve some of the issues that we see currently.

1. It would solve the issues where the end user does not follow the installation instructions and botches the install.
2. It would solve the issue where there are multiple versions of a jar file and some plugins overwrite the newer version.
3. It would force developers to consistent in the way the package there releases.
4. If it was a true package manager it could be able to handle STV upgrades more gracefully by reinstalling all plugins after a new stv is loaded.

I would also like to comment on the new Fanart layout. I would like to thank all of the people that worked on coming up with the new layout and the tools that work with the new layout. I have been using the Phoenix API's in my iMovies plugin and I have found them to be very easy to use and very well layed out. I am very happy with the flexibility of the new fanart structure.

It is nice to see the direction that the new metadata tools are going in. I have used BMT and I have found that it has saved me a ton of time.

[PLUCKYHD]

I guess I will chime in here as a starting developer for sage. My add in has been in private beta for almost two weeks now and I am trying everything I can to insure it works as planned when released. I think most developers do that either through private beta like me or by posting on here and saying it is beta. Will my app be free of errors absolutely not.but I have poured weeks and hours upon hours into it as have all the devlopers on here

As others have said your are using beta if you have fanart so what do you expect

I know that all the other developers have put more hours than I care to imagine yet most of them have been more than willing to help me out

We want all our add-INS to work together

For free I think you are getting on heck of a deal

I won't so how bad "hacks" ticks me off

[MeInMaui]

If these are hacks, does that make us H4X0RZS? I always wondered what it would be like to be 1337. Or what ever it is you kids are calling it these days....

Hey you.....Get off my lawn!!!!

[hemicuda]

Originally Posted by MeInMaui

Or what ever it is you kids are calling it these days....

Hey you.....Get off my lawn!!!!

If it's too loud... you're too old.

to chime in my $0.02 I also appreciate greatly the efforts of the STVi developers. Sage would not be as high on my list or have a WAF above a DVR if it weren't for "you all".

[Clift]

Truly, the comskip and comskip monitor have helped my WAF tremendously. I took a tumble with the HDHR lockup on 4/15 or whenever it was when American Idol failed to record, but commercial skipping always brings it back. In addition I have been out of town since Sunday and have not gotten a single supprt call from home. So I guess SageMC, Fanart, and Comskip are all pretty stable hacks. Well I just want to thank all you "hack developers" for all your hard work. Even if your hacks suck!