Tired of bugged softwares...

[Zack]

I really don't want to be boring but I'm really.. really... REALLY... tired of having trouble with my SageTV setup.

My setup: I have a Hauppauge 350 with Sage TV 2 on WinXP Pro.

To help other users, here's my bug history :

- Few months ago my Java plugin has automatically updated itself.. Stupid auto-updaters! . This has made the Zap2It plugin unusable because the Sun Java JRE was now in a new folder and the Zap2It plugin jars were unreachable. This problem has made my Sage TV unusable since it was alwasy freezing. As a software developer, I think this isn't an acceptable behavior. But, here we can blame the Sun updater and the Zap2It plugin.

To correct this problem, I've simply copied the Zap2It jar files to the new Sun Java JRE directory.

- Since few weeks, I have problems with my EPG feature. Even if the Zap2It web service is available, I often get 'No data' display everywhere in the Live TV screen. At this time, I didn't find any trick to tell Sage TV to update himself. Very annoying. I found that if I record a 'No data' entry, Sage records correctly based on the clock, but I need to go back in the time with the rewind feature to one or two hours in the past to get all my tv programs! Weird behavior, but it seems to be normal since Sage is unable to know where to start and where to end the recording.

- Since few days now, 'No data' again. I've checked the Zap2It webservice and it's working fine. Sage is again out to lunch . If I use WinTV2000 (The hauppauge TV software) everything is fine. So my card and my drivers are okay!

- Since two days, black screen. Sage TV starts, but shows nothing. Menus are working and I still have 'No data' entries, but I have a black screen on every channel. No sound, no video. After saying few bad words, I decided to update Sage to the release 2.2.7. Surprise! Sage starts and I have an image! But no sound... ... After few Sage restart... I finally got sound. Nice! I was sure everything was fine now! But no.. I have another problem.... I can't change channel!! It seems to change in the menu and in the top status bar, but the video and the sound are always on the same channel!!! . If I want to change to another channel, I have to close Sage, Open WinTV2000, select a channel, close it, reopen Sage TV and.. Surprise, I can see the new channel!... on every channel...

This software is not free, so I assume that after spending a lot of money on theses products (I have all Sage TV softwares!) I will not have to debug my TV many times a week just to use them!

I'm now thinking of getting my money back and purchase a more stable solution. As a software developer, I really think that this software is awesome but it needs a better development support and coordination. Maybe there's not enough alpha and beta tests. Unfortunately, I don't have time to test this software as a beta tester.

Keep in mind that I'm not writing this message to blame anyone or simply to share negative experiences. I really think these products are great and I hope this message will help the future releases to be more stable.

---------
Zack

[Wheemer]

Minus one minor bug in Sage version 2.2.7, SageTV is the most reliable ans stable PVR application I have used. I have tested BeyondTV, GBPvr, MediaPortal and MCE.

Due the the fact that Sage works with many different hardware options, it does make for a more picky setup. However if you have the latest drivers installed for your components then everything should be working fine.

You should always disable the Java updater, all it is is a PITA. This can be done by typing msconfig in the run command box and deselecting "Jusched" from the startup tab. I have been using the zap2it canadian listing plugin since I started using sage and I have never once had a hickup.

I wish I could offer more help with the zap2it plugin, but it needs a rather trivial setup process and just works after that. There must be something interupting the downloads or something?

What driver version are you using for your 350?

What dvd decoder are you using?

Are you using overlay or vmr9 in Sage?

[mdmint]

You're tired of buggy software and are thinking of bagging it? Then get rid of Windows!!! Ok, I'll conceded that WinXP with it's zillion updates & security patches is far better than any of the previous atrocious previous Windows releases... OTOH my SageTV setup has been rock solid since put in production 11 months running dedicated SageTV Server & Clients... in spite of WinXP,

[1972]

I see you are having a PVR-350 and you don't mention typical 350 bugs like: audio out of sync when using the 350 output, EOF lock-ups, etc., etc......

(wow! ;-)

[midiboy]

Well,

I have been using SageTV for just a few days now (maybe 1-2 weeks) but I have to agree that it does not work as reliably as it probably should. The problem is that all is well after installation and for a few recordings but then, seemingly out of nowhere there are problems and recorded programs are broken. This is not reliable and therefore not really usable because I never know if scheduled programs will record correctly.

Those are my problems with SageTV:

1. Sometimes the recorded video does not have sound. I have no idea how this happens or what triggers it but this of course is reason enough not to record using SageTV because I cannot rely on it.

2. Sometimes the recorded video shows only a black picture although the recording before that one worked just fine. The same thing as above, I have no idea what "triggers" this bug.

3. Sometimes "no data" is displayed in the EPG although the XMLTV plugin is set up correctly. Usually, after a few hours, this problem is gone but that may be too late if I need to schedule a recording now. There should be a "reload now" button or something. Going into channel setup and toggling channels on and off (that is what I gathered should be done ) does not help, at least not immediately.

4. Sometimes SageTV "looses" the channel frequency of all channels and then all I get is noise on all channels. At least for that problem I found a "cause" and a solution but it is annoying to say the least. The cause seems to be switching to the SVideo input of my PVR500 card while watching LiveTV. The solution is to add frequency information to the Windows registry using a reg file that I made myself (took me at least 5 hours to make that reg file). Of course I have to "apply" that reg file each time I switch to the SVideo input. I have therefore disabled the SVideo input in SageTV.

If I add to that the fact that I cannot add channels to a lineup manually and the fact that SageTV relies on Windows tuning (which as the above shows is not very reliable for some countries) I am not so sure if SageTV is the right software for me. I probably won´t buy it ...

Also I have to say that the current practise of loading STV´s for a different user interface/enhanced features is extremely unprofessional and buggy (seemingly). I tried quite a few of them. Not only do most STV´s break my Java installation (I was not able to connect to my bank account website for instance after adding certain Java extensions needed for some STV´s) they are also mostly a pain to install (files go everywhere into the SageTV directory) and are almost impossibly to deinstall completely because of that.
Also, some of those extensions seem to degrade SageTV stability. An exception to that are the Nielm´s STV´s. They work great and supply features that should be included in SageTV to begin with (like the ability to change the menu´s )

Now, if I compare all that to Mediaportal for instance ...

Mediaportal is free. It is still in a very early development stage. (current version is 0.1.1.1). Yes, it contains lots of bugs obviously. But ... strangely enough, scheduled programs have ALWAYS recorded correctly, I never had any recording that was without sound or picture which is the most important thing for a TV recording application, no ? In addition, it is much better geared towards European users because it integrates an XMLTV scheduler, allows for adding channels manually and does not rely on Windows timing. Also, those guys get out new versions extremely often and bugs are being fixed.

I am not trying to be unfair or anything. I am just posting my observations I made over the last few weeks. I could live with SageTV and it´s feature set happily but if I never know if scheduled recordings contain sound or video, I obviously cannot use it ....

Bye,
Alex

[1972]

Originally Posted by midiboy

Now, if I compare all that to Mediaportal for instance ...

To be honest: If Mediaportal supported the TV out of the PVR-350 is used it instead of SageTV...

[Lucas]

The problems you are experiencing seem to be the initial teething problems of setting up SageTV. But once everything is set-up properly it should be rock-solid.

I installed sageTV back in July 2004, took me 6 weeks to get the full picture of all the interdependencies and since then it has been rock-solid. Never missed a scheduled recording. It routinely records upwards of 10 shows per day.
I am as picky as you about stability. I want my PVR to be as stable as any STB.
Currently my SageTV setup is as stable. I only reboot for unrelated maintenance activities.

But I have 250 and a USB2. I steered away of the 350 because of all the reported problems with it and just as well.

[salsbst]

Just a few words of advice: it's almost always the the drivers.

[Zack]

WinXP... Hauppauge 350.. I don't care if my problems come from my OS or my card, Sage is just supposed to work with it. At the beginning my solution was a custom setup with Linux, but open source is open source... Freak development and weird setup. I like freak setups, but not when I just want to relax in the couch and watch tv

I've never had any problem with my Hauppauge 350 TV-Out after installing the last drivers. Everything was fine until my EPG problems.

Sage reacts like the old Windows 95. When the network was busy or when there was a floppy in the drive, it was stalling, freezing, until the process returns. Very weak method to handle processes. It has been corrected using a real multi-thread environment in later Windows version. Sage has the same problem. Getting the data from the EPG service shouldn't disturb the main functions.

And... please... it is possible to have real error messages?? I'm a software developer, but my girlfriend is not a computer freak!! Freaking errors with hex numbers are not very usefull. I don't think this product is for freak users only! And error messages should refer to the problem context. As an example, if I open the Sage Client on my computer to watch TV and my girlfriend in the living room tries to change the current channel, she gets a weird error message like 'Playback error' with an hex code. Very usefull . Maybe a simple message like this should be ok: "You can't change the current channel because one or more clients are connected". This message seems to be normal, but the weird 'Playback error' sounds like a fatal error telling the user that the TV has crashed again!

And.. Wheemer, the Java Updater is not a problem when you can answer yes or no before updating. But my girlfriend always answer yes hehehe! . The problem I mentionned about that wasn't because the Java has been updated, it was because Sage was freezing only because the EPG plugin wasn't responding! Multi-threading and a real error handler are the keys!

I will reinstall all my Sage softwares today and hope everything will be okay.

[Crashless]

Originally Posted by Zack

I've never had any problem with my Hauppauge 350 TV-Out after installing the last drivers. Everything was fine until my EPG problems.

Not to gloss over your problems, but which driver did you install lately? Where'd you get it? I've been having issues and am always up to try some new drivers.

Also, if you could throw it out there, which version of Java are you using?

Thanks

[wbarber69]

you claim to be a programmer yourself but if your are as proficient with a computer as a program should be you have to understand that most issues with windows sagetv or just about any finished program production is with hardware and not software, and as youve been instructed the pvr 350 has too many issues with it and at the stake of sounding like an a**hole, come on man, deal with it, every single piece of saftware on and off the market has flaws no matter how good a programmer is they can't make up for the lack of decent hardware out there, this is the time wwe live in and technology is at a very fragile point in its development.

And to answer your other comment just about all the htpc software out there right now has been mainly consumed by the eccentrics out there like us here and has just recently been given publication notoriety, due to the influx of the popularity of devices like the TiVo and RePlayTV

[Zack]

Yes.. I'm a programmer and I know the different between minor and major problems. Weird error messages and weak multi-threading are minor issues. The product just needs improvements. But not being able to change channels and having no video/sound are major problems! It means I can't use it! It's like buying a car; engine can make some noise when cold, temperature can be slow to get high, some features may have problems and need a recall by the dealer, but, engine will run, the wheels will turn, the doors will close! Do you understand what I mean?

I'm really think that this software is great and that it just needs tuning, but when I pay for a software I want to use it without having to be a software developer to debug it! Everyone here have cracked or open source software and no one will blame anyone for bugs or weird behavior, but when you spend money to have real stuff, I think you deserve something better.

I'm not sharing negative experiences just for the fun of it. I will be the first to post positive comments on something great. Yes I'm tired of bugged software, but it's a general thought. I've spent a lot of money on many softwares last year and I often need to debug weird behaviors and ask for updates. I'm tired of this.

I'll do my best to help you get this software a better product. For now it's a "HEY HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!" call. I just hope it'll be taken the positive way.

So, I have a TV to debug! C ya!

[Jere_Jones]

Have you submitted a trouble call to Frey?

Jere

[Zack]

Yeah.. At the beginning for EPG problems.

[Crashless]

Oooo ooo. Over here.

Which drivers Zack? If you don't mind telling. Also, which java?

Thanks, I'm debugging too. (especially when it works right, that's the best time to mess with things.)

[Zack]

Sorry Crashless, I got my drivers from this site but I can't remember where . It was in some kind of troubleshooting page about the Hauppauge cards. It was the lastest driver at this time.

[teedublu]

Also, the 350 runs hot and is easy to overheat it in a typical PC case. An overheated board will do all kinds of strange things. Make sure a fan is blowing some air at it.

TW

[Zack]

... And my Java version is 1.4.2_06

[Wheemer]

Maybe you should try the latest drivers for your 350, SHS has these: ftp://www.shspvr.com/download/wintv-....22301_inf.zip

I'm running them on my 4 pvr 250s and they work perfectly.

You might also want to give the newer version of java a try: http://www.java.com/en/download/windows_xpi.jsp (remember to move your added libs)

[Zack]

- Java 2 1.5 installed...
- Lastest Hauppauge drivers installed... (Thx Wheemer!)
- Sage TV 2.2.8 installed.. and working... but... The Zap2It plugin is no working. I don't know why for now. I've done everyhing written in the installation page. I've done that the first time and everything was fine. For and unknown reason, this time it seems that the webservice is not called. When everything is okay, the wizard should freeze after the zip code window to download EPG data. But this time is doesn't freeze and displays the "Select line-up" window without any choices. I can't finish the wizard.

I'll check that tomorrow. If you have hints, let your fingers tell me!