How do you keep SageTV stable?

[freedml]

Is the number of tuners the primary user of Java/JVM heap memory (as suggested in that thread) or are there other signifcant factors?

[GKusnick]

It's not just tuners. Anything that creates Java objects will consume heap, and pretty much the entire program is written in Java. Screens with lots of icons or thumbnail graphics need a lot of heap. Scrolling through long lists of media files or EPG data uses heap. Database searches need heap. Then multiply all that times the number of Placeshifter or Extender clients you have connected; they're all using heap on the server.

[pjpjpjpj]

Heh - I read all the posts on the first page with suggestions about how to have a "stable" system, and I follow almost NONE of them, but have a very stable system.

But the things that keep my system stable are things that most here wouldn't consider living with:
1) OTA-only (2 HDHRs), so I don't have to mess with HD-PVRs, QAM remapping, or any of the internal tuner cards that seem (on the "hardware" forum) to always have issues.
2) I don't use comskip so I don't put any extra strain on my server's processor.
3) A store-bought, non-home-built server running basic XP Home edition. I know I am in the minority on this website (not arguing that anyone should do it differently, by any means!) but I don't tinker with PCs and take apart/put together, I just had an old PC sitting around so I used it as my server. The only thing I have done to it is install more RAM and put in a modem (for the caller ID/info popup plug-in). Sometimes it appears that the nature of building your own PC (and the inherent "tinkering" that comes with that) seems to lead to issues and instability. Maybe not.

Changing topics - on the java heap thing - I recently bumped mine up (installed more RAM, upped the heap to 200/512), and I have definitely noticed improved performance in how fast the extenders react and especially how fast they start up.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

But the things that keep my system stable are things that most here wouldn't consider living with:
1) OTA-only (2 HDHRs), so I don't have to mess with HD-PVRs, QAM remapping, or any of the internal tuner cards that seem (on the "hardware" forum) to always have issues.

The fact you don't use an HD PVR probably eliminates a lot of the problems others are having.

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

2) I don't use comskip so I don't put any extra strain on my server's processor.

I don't think this has anything to do with it.

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

3) A store-bought, non-home-built server running basic XP Home edition. I know I am in the minority on this website (not arguing that anyone should do it differently, by any means!) but I don't tinker with PCs and take apart/put together, I just had an old PC sitting around so I used it as my server. The only thing I have done to it is install more RAM and put in a modem (for the caller ID/info popup plug-in). Sometimes it appears that the nature of building your own PC (and the inherent "tinkering" that comes with that) seems to lead to issues and instability. Maybe not.

I don't think so. Especially since the server I am putting together has higher quality parts than any store bought PC I've encountered. And, the WHS that I am going to be using is quite a stable operating system.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Sometimes it appears that the nature of building your own PC (and the inherent "tinkering" that comes with that) seems to lead to issues and instability. Maybe not.

I strongly disagree with this. When buying a pre-built PC off the shelf, you have very little control over what parts you're getting or what sort of crapware is preloaded onto it. This violates the "use good harware" and "install only the software you need" rules. If you know what you're doing, building your own PC and installing the OS onto bare metal is a much better guarantee of stable operation.

[dblaine2]

I think what we have proven in this thread is that there is no cookie-cutter approach (although I agree with most of the previous recommendations: use good hardware, don't use as general purpose machine, disable updates).

So I think the take-away is if you are having stability problems, change your strategy...

[TorontoSage]

I think what I have learned from this thread and others, being a relative newbie, is to get good hardware and a stable OS and to get the bare-bones SageTV running first and then add your customizations and other hardware one-by-one making sure that you test the system in between to make sure it is stable and running properly.

[johnnytyler]

I agree with all of the above, but I also have a fairly stable system, but because of my various plugins including DVBdream, my system can become unstable at times. I also have a dedicated server that nobody tocuhes and I exclusively use HD100 extenders. What I've done is put in a custom program to reboot the server and all the extenders if I have any instability problems. Thus from the SageMC extender exit, I have a custom exit that I push which reboots my server and my extender. Turn around time is approx 3 minutes but then its back to normal and everything is a go again. I'm planning on putting in a automatic 6:00 am reboot.

If your interested, I can tell you how I set up the reboot programs.

[TorontoSage]

Yes I think we'd all like to know.

[mayamaniac]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Heh - I read all the posts on the first page with suggestions about how to have a "stable" system, and I follow almost NONE of them, but have a very stable system.

Not true. You are running only what is needed, keep it simple with both hardware and software, which is one of the things mentioned in this thread. Plus you added more memory, which is also mentioned.

Buying a PC is fine because the hardware is somewhat tested to work together. But most manufacturers do use the cheapest parts possible so you don't always get the best stuffs. And it becomes a problem if you need to upgrade, such as upgrading to Vista but the manufacturer doesn't have Vista drivers.

[jack_leach]

Originally Posted by johnnytyler

If your interested, I can tell you how I set up the reboot programs.

Yes, I'd be interested also. I've read several postings where folks have enabled automatic restarts of their servers in the middle of the night and I can see where that might create a more stable operating environment (instead of waiting for the inevitable problem that seems to occur with Microsoft operating systems when they've been running too long without a restart). Anyway, I'm looking for a simple way to implement the automatic restart each night.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

I think what I have learned from this thread and others, being a relative newbie, is to get good hardware and a stable OS and to get the bare-bones SageTV running first and then add your customizations and other hardware one-by-one making sure that you test the system in between to make sure it is stable and running properly.

Which is exactly my gut reaction when ever anyone asks for a known working config. There just isn't one. I don't know, maybe there could be, but there are so many variables it's almost impossible to isolate and document them all. Even if you buy all the same hardware, it's possible a (unknown) revision of one could throw off the whole plan.

Take the HD200 in standalone mode for example, that's a 100% closed system with identical hardware and software. Yet it doesn't work quite the same for everyone. Some peoples displays report different/bad EDID info over HDMI. Some people have odd CIFS/file sharing configs, all that cause different results. So even identical hardware can have different results in different systems.

In the end there are only good practices. And good practices get you 99% of the way there. I think the ones mentioned in this thread are all ones people with stability problems should compare to their own practices.

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Not true. You are running only what is needed, keep it simple with both hardware and software, which is one of the things mentioned in this thread. Plus you added more memory, which is also mentioned.

Buying a PC is fine because the hardware is somewhat tested to work together. But most manufacturers do use the cheapest parts possible so you don't always get the best stuffs. And it becomes a problem if you need to upgrade, such as upgrading to Vista but the manufacturer doesn't have Vista drivers.

Good point, drivers for OEM machines can be a bear to find, while for "3rd party" components are much easier. Though that Dell Studio XPS 435 is one nice looking machine, both in aestetics and parts

Originally Posted by johnnytyler

I agree with all of the above, but I also have a fairly stable system, but because of my various plugins including DVBdream, my system can become unstable at times. I also have a dedicated server that nobody tocuhes and I exclusively use HD100 extenders. What I've done is put in a custom program to reboot the server and all the extenders if I have any instability problems. Thus from the SageMC extender exit, I have a custom exit that I push which reboots my server and my extender. Turn around time is approx 3 minutes but then its back to normal and everything is a go again. I'm planning on putting in a automatic 6:00 am reboot.

If your interested, I can tell you how I set up the reboot programs.

The only word of "caution" I have is I think this is a bandaid. Now if you're using a bunch of plugins, and their stability problems can't be fixed, it may be your only choice. But I'd recommend that if you're not using stuff like DVB network encoders and the like, that you (the generic you) look over your own config, compare it to the best practices described in this thread and make sure there's not something there that might fix the issue.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

I strongly disagree with this.

I knew most would, hence my intentional adding of the statement "Maybe not."

As I said, I know I am in the (tiny) minority here, and most Sage users are much more techno-savvy (or at least PC savvy) then I am. But I am proof that you can use a machine off the shelf (and a refurb'ed one, at that), clean everything off except the basics, don't toy with it constantly, and have it work reliably. Whereas I read posts on this forum every single day from people having problems with their home-built machines... things not working right, devices failing, gadgets not playing nice together. Maybe I'm just lucky... regardless, I am not complaining.
(now off to do a pagan ritual dance to ward off that jinx I just laid on myself)

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Not true. You are running only what is needed, keep it simple with both hardware and software, which is one of the things mentioned in this thread.

And hence my intentional adding of the word "almost" before "none". But, yeah, I was mostly talking about the insistence on having high-quality parts in a home-built machine, as mentioned above. The "keep it simple" was covered by the "almost".

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

But I am proof that you can use a machine off the shelf (and a refurb'ed one, at that), clean everything off except the basics, don't toy with it constantly, and have it work reliably. Whereas I read posts on this forum every single day from people having problems with their home-built machines... things not working right, devices failing, gadgets not playing nice together. Maybe I'm just lucky... regardless, I am not complaining.
(now off to do a pagan ritual dance to ward off that jinx I just laid on myself)

I am not sure that you are necessarily proof. There are many instances on here of people running the same hardware and software yet for one person it works and for the other it doesn't.

So, you may just be plain lucky, but there is no way to know. Make sure you do that ritual dance immediately just in case!

[johnnytyler]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The only word of "caution" I have is I think this is a bandaid. Now if you're using a bunch of plugins, and their stability problems can't be fixed, it may be your only choice. But I'd recommend that if you're not using stuff like DVB network encoders and the like, that you (the generic you) look over your own config, compare it to the best practices described in this thread and make sure there's not something there that might fix the issue.

I agree with that 100%. However, I've found that at times, I can play videos that may not be encoded properly or have some problem with the video that Sage does not like and it give you the circle of death, and then when you try to play other videos after that it doesn't work so well. In addition, such as in my case, I have DVBdream plugin, others have other encoders that can stop functioning for one reason or the other, and need a server reboot and sometimes an extender reboot. My workaround is simple and works 100% of the time. HOWEVER, if you are having problems with Sage routinely, I agree that this would be a bandaid. For my setup, I generally know what is causing Sage to hang, and it's not necessarily the program but some third party plugin.

Because it's been a few months, let me write up the exact method, and I will post it here in a little bit for people who are interested.

[ractar28]

Originally Posted by mayamaniac

Stability:

1. Must be dedicated server machine. No one should touch this machine.

This, in a nutshell, IMHO, is the reason why TiVo has become so effective and so widely available. They build the hardware, they load the software, and you can't "mess anything up".

[ractar28]

Originally Posted by JREkiwi

And just to add more confusion.

I run XP Pro, have 27 plugins loaded, have the latest Java, Windows updates and device drivers and use the machine every day as a general use machine as well as SageTV server.

Playback is only via HD100 and MVP.

Do you ever have any choppiness due to doing other things with the machine? I'm getting a little bit with Vista MCE, though I can't prove it's not the OTA reception. It's in the recording because I can skip back and replay the same part of the show and have the same impact.

I know, this isn't the VMC support group, but right now I'm on the bubble to switch to SageTV. The difference right now is honestly just the Extender piece. I missed the Linksys for $100, and while I don't WANT to toss out $250 for SageTV and the HD200, I'm open to the option.

However, being able to use my PC as a SageTV server and my normal workstation is quite appealing.

I have a quad core, 4 gigs of RAM, and will run XP if given the choice .

[JREkiwi]

Originally Posted by ractar28

Do you ever have any choppiness due to doing other things with the machine?

I've never seen any choppiness, but I think if anything is proved by this thread, it's that YMMV.

John

[freedml]

YMMV (your mileage may vary) is ok for things like storage and extra horsepower in the cpu, but the 'player' portion of SageTV should work smoothly as long as the minimum system requirements are met, and I think there is plenty of evidence that it doesn't.

[MattHelm]

Originally Posted by freedml

SageTV should work smoothly as long as the minimum system requirements are met, and I think there is plenty of evidence that it doesn't.

I have to disagree with you 100% there. I ran SageTV for YEARS on a old Intel MB (D865PERL) with a Celeron CPU and 512MB of RAM and an old 9500 ATI AIW card as both the server and playback device (and a second user on a PC). I know I left it one time for 4 months with only placeshifter access, and is was fine. My dad's system (see second server) normally runs about 6-8 weeks without anyone (me) screwing with it, and the 3rd one listed, I've only touched twice since it was installed ~20 months ago, though the guy using it, isn't afraid of computers, so he resets it once in a while.

Heck, my biggest problems with dad's has been his internet, not the SageTV box!!!

There aren't many home FILE servers that can say that!!! And yes, I use them as backup file servers too.

Oh, and I know people with ReplayTV's and TIVOs, and they have to be reset once in a while too.