How do you keep SageTV stable?

[jack_leach]

After lurking and reading this forum for two months (and getting great information!) I built a home server based on WHS with SageTV, a pair of HD-PVR's and three HD200 extenders. While the system now works "most of the time", I still have regular glitches and anomalies that require restarting (or power cycling) "something" in the system. Sometimes I have to power-cycle the HD-PVR's, sometimes I have to stop-start the SageTV service and sometimes I need to reboot the server. I've had so many different symptoms that I'm not going to detail them here (but they usually involve operations that freeze or become erratic).

Here's my question: If you have a stable system running SageTV, what's your secret? Are there add-ins to avoid? Are there settings in SageTV that impact stability? Can SageMC cause stability problems? Are these problems common with SageTV?

Any help is appreciated!

Jack

[wayner]

My system is pretty stable as long as I am not changing things. I have a similar setup to you - WHS server with 2xHD-PVRs and several HD-200 extenders. As long as I am not upgrading things I don't have issues. When I first got my extenders and I was upgrading firmware I did have the odd reliability issue but very few since then.

With the HD-PVRs it is hit or miss. I have very few problems but others require almost daily power resets. There is a theory that using digital audio causes more problems but some folks on digital have no problems. FYI - I am still using analog audio but I may switch to digital soon.

[GKusnick]

This isn't really a secret (or shouldn't be), but the first step in running a stable system is to use reliable hardware with stable drivers. I don't have an HD-PVR so I can't vouch for its stability. I used to have frequent crashes with some FusionHDTV PCI tuners until I yanked them and replaced them with Vbox USB tuners. My system has been very stable since (until my power supply blew up a couple of weeks ago, but that's another story). If a piece of hardware is causing headaches, swap it out for something that works.

Originally Posted by jack_leach

Are there add-ins to avoid?

Without naming names, I think the key here is to recognize that many add-ons are developed by enthusiasts working on their own time, and thus may not have the level of professional polish you'd expect from a commercial product. So the smart thing is to go slow, making sure you have a stable base setup, trying one add-on at a time, testing thoroughly after each one, and keeping careful backups so you can undo any damage that arises. A lot of new users, I think, tend to view add-ons as a kind of candy store in which they can run wild customizing their system with all kinds of cool stuff, usually to the detriment of system stability.

[stanger89]

I'll answer it this way:

I've got SageTV running on Windows Server 2003 (almost the same OS as WHS), I've got an HD PVR, and HDHomerun, and SD tuner, and I run exclusively HD200 extenders.

HD PVR drivers are the next to (I see there's new ones now) latest WHQL versions.
HDHR is the beta from a few weeks back.

I've got no stability problems whatsoever. Only time the HD PVR needs a kick is if the server gets shut down from a power outage (that's longer than the UPS runs). I've got windows auto update disabled, Java auto update disabled.

About the only thing I ever do to my Sage setup is install the latest beta when they come along (which occasionally brings a bug, but not stability issues).

It's definitely possible for SageMC to be causing issues, there's lots of stuff it installs. It might be worth your time to revert back to the stock STV for a while and see if anything changes.

That said I wouldn't expect SageMC to be causing any issues for you.

Disabling all the "auto updates" is about the only secret to stability I know. Personally I never install a Windows or Java update unless the "collective wisdom" says I should. I never update because they're there.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Disabling all the "auto updates" is about the only secret to stability I know. Personally I never install a Windows or Java update unless the "collective wisdom" says I should. I never update because they're there.

Not to pick a fight, but there's various schools of thought on that. "If it ain't broke" has its merits, but on the other hand, a lot of people with that policy got a rude shock when the DST rules changed a year or two ago, and we're still seeing fallout from that now.

Personally, I want to be running as close as possible to a standard, well-tested software configuration. I figure the testers and IT managers at Microsoft and Sun are probably pretty compulsive about keeping their systems up to date, so that's where I want to be too. Once you start picking and choosing individual updates to install, you can get off the beaten path into untested territory pretty quick.

[mayamaniac]

Stability:

1. Must be dedicated server machine. No one should touch this machine.
2. Proper cooling. Make sure it is well ventilated and never gets overheated. Don't have messy wiring in the case, tie them up neatly. I recommend harddrive cages with fans for all your harddrives.
3. Don't buy cheap hardware, especially the motherboard, get a good one. I like intel boards and chipsets, but it's a personal choice.
4. Stable OS. Win2003/WHS. Always do clean install.
5. Only install what is needed, keep OS bloat free.
6. Load pleny of memory, at least 2GB.

I have Win2003 and do auto updates, hasn't been a problem. My uptime is pretty good, with only need to shutdown when I need to add new harddrives. The system is extremely stable ever since I went with the intel badaxe 2, D975BXB2. I had all sort of problem before with an Asus AMD board and a Gigabyte Intel board.

[JREkiwi]

And just to add more confusion.

I run XP Pro, have 27 plugins loaded, have the latest Java, Windows updates and device drivers and use the machine every day as a general use machine as well as SageTV server.

Playback is only via HD100 and MVP.

Can't remember the last crash I had, it may have been two machines back. I have always used Gigabyte Intel boards.

John

[paulbeers]

I am with Stanger, I do not do auto updates unless the collective here states I need to (DST is an example of one that I did do), this includes both Windows and Java.

Get a good hardware. Above all get a good Power supply.....Stupid Coolmax and your rebates....@^#$#@. (sidebar: also make sure the power supply is a high effeciency. While this won't affect stability, it will save you lots of moola)

Don't use a lot of plugins. At least not right away. I run a mostly stock Sage setup. It just works. Someday I will branch out, but I fear the WAF.

[davephan]

Take periodic images of your system's boot drive and store them on a USB hard drive. After your system is stable, if it becomes unstable due to software problems, you can easily restore your system back to a point in time when it was stable. If the restoration fixes the problem, then you know it was a software problem, and whatever was causing the problem is gone after the restoration. If the restoration does not fix the stability problem, then you know you have a hardware problem.

Dave

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by GKusnick

Not to pick a fight, but there's various schools of thought on that. "If it ain't broke" has its merits, but on the other hand, a lot of people with that policy got a rude shock when the DST rules changed a year or two ago, and we're still seeing fallout from that now.

Note that I didn't say never install an update, I said disable auto updates. The DST update is one that falls into the "collective wisdom says install it" update, that big IE security fix is another.

But I've seen auto-updates go awry far to often to be able to recommend people use them. Let's see, we've got Java update 11 which blew up Sage for some. We've got windows updates that hosed boot order (my mom got hit by that, and my cube-mate on her work PC).

Personally, I want to be running as close as possible to a standard, well-tested software configuration. I figure the testers and IT managers at Microsoft and Sun are probably pretty compulsive about keeping their systems up to date, so that's where I want to be too. Once you start picking and choosing individual updates to install, you can get off the beaten path into untested territory pretty quick.

All I know is I've had problems where updates screwed me, and not blindly installing auto updates hasn't caused me any problems.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stanger89

The DST update is one that falls into the "collective wisdom says install it" update...

Right, but by the time the collective wisdom had formed that opinion, the time change had already happened and recordings had already been missed.

That said, I have seen reboot failures after auto-updating, and for that reason I make a point of disabling auto-updates when I'm out of town. So maybe that puts me in the semi-automatic update camp.

[jack_leach]

Reply to all: Thanks for the good responses here! I'm going to remove SageMC for now and resist the urge to install more add-ins.

Just had a new thought. When I ordered my two Hauppauge HD-PVR's (from Sage) they sent me one "D2" model and one "E1" model. Does anybody think that that could cause my instability problems (or any other problems)? Should I ask Hauppauge to replace my "D2" with an "E1"?

Jack

[Olias]

I had a "fairly" stable system using Sage on a server, a pair of OTA tuners, a pair of HD DirecTV tuners and HD extenders for viewing.
There were two issues that I've had that caused unstability. Once I addressed those two issues, my system has been rock solid.

1. Switching from digital audio to analog on the HD PVR. If I ever get enough free time to mess with this, I will try digital audio again. But using analog audio just WORKS, all the time, no muss no fuss. (I don't think that having two different versions of the HD PVR will be a problem with your setup.)

2. Modifying the Java memory. This was a problem with me for months. Every week or so, Sage would get sluggish and "freak out" on me. I went round and round trying to figure out the problem. I removed/added plugins, switched between the default UI and SageMC, etc and the problem persisted.
Finally I stumbled upon one of the threads about Java heap size and BINGO, the issue was solved.

A couple of final suggestions. There have been folks here who have found problems with multiple HD PVRs on shared USB controllers. It's best to make sure that the USB ports you're using for the HD PVRs are isolated from any other device. And taping over the IR receivers on the HD PVRs themselves can eliminate some occaisional problems.

[TorontoSage]

Originally Posted by davephan

Take periodic images of your system's boot drive and store them on a USB hard drive. After your system is stable, if it becomes unstable due to software problems, you can easily restore your system back to a point in time when it was stable. If the restoration fixes the problem, then you know it was a software problem, and whatever was causing the problem is gone after the restoration. If the restoration does not fix the stability problem, then you know you have a hardware problem.

Dave

How does one take an image of a system boot drive?

[mayamaniac]

You have to invest in some sort of backup softwares, such as Acronis Trueimage or Norton Ghost. I think Vista has a built in backup software that does the entire boot drive.

[jack_leach]

Originally Posted by TorontoSage

How does one take an image of a system boot drive?

I'm still a newbie at this stuff, but I've read that it's not wise to save (and restore) system images with WHS because the file pointers (tombstones) are constantly being modified and an image restoration will likely result in file synchronization issues (tombstones pointing to the wrong locations). Am I understanding this correctly?

Jack

[freedml]

Originally Posted by Olias

2. Modifying the Java memory. This was a problem with me for months. Every week or so, Sage would get sluggish and "freak out" on me. I went round and round trying to figure out the problem. I removed/added plugins, switched between the default UI and SageMC, etc and the problem persisted.
Finally I stumbled upon one of the threads about Java heap size and BINGO, the issue was solved.

What was it when you started ('0' default?) and what did you change it to?

[davephan]

Before you purchase disk imaging software, you could try PING, Partition Image is NOT Ghost. This is free disk imaging software based in Linux. It will work to image either Linux or Windows. More information is available at: http://ping.windowsdream.com/

Dave

[Olias]

Originally Posted by freedml

What was it when you started ('0' default?) and what did you change it to?

I don't remember what it was to start, but I changed it to 200 (hex) which is 512MB (SageTV reports it as 533 MB).
Here's a thread that explains it:

http://forums.freytechnologies.com/f...ad.php?t=23681

When I look at System Information in Sage, my usage maxes out at around 450, YMMV.

[freedml]

It 'sort of' explains it. My registry value is '0' which I believe results in a JVM standard heap size of 256mb. My numbers are 103/112/266 after 2 days of normal usage so I think I'm ok on this item.