Java 6 Update 12 -- Help

[Diego Garcia]

I just updated my SageTV (XP-based) system to J6u12 and all of Sage has stopped working (i.e., when the machine reboots, neither the background recording process nor the foreground process comes up).

I cannot access the Java control panel applet.

I cannot uninstall J6u12 from Add/Remove Programs. The installer just hangs.

Sage was running fine with J6u4, I'd like to downrev to that...but how the heck do I do that??

[electronics4lif]

I hope someone can tell you a better way than what I had to do. I first tried system restore. This crashed/corrupted explorer.exe or something. Then I tried to repair XP using the install cd. This also did not work. After a bunch of other failures, I reinstalled Windows...sigh.

I'll tell you one thing. I will forever be weary of Java updates from now on.

[Diego Garcia]

I hear your. I am never, never, never going to update Java again on the Sage system again. In fact, I am going to not just disable, but also delete, the ever-so-helpful java automatic update checker.

If I have to re-install Windows to solve this problem I am going to be not just very angry at Sun, like I am right now, but unbelievably, blindingly angry. Because I'll lose all the meta-data associated with my saved SageTV recordings.

There has to be a way to clean out this Sun garbage and start over again (i.e., just install Java 6 u 4, which works with Sage).

[zip]

I had the same problem, but was able to remove the update. Problem is that the uninstaller won't run while the sagetv service is starting (mine was stuck in this state). Problem is with the service set to auto-start, and no way to change the service to disabled this was a little tricky. I ended up renaming sagetvservice.exe to another name with a cmd prompt, then rebooting. You get the service failure on startup, but can cleanly run the uninstall for the update from add/remove programs, then rename the exe back to its original name, and sagetv should be back to happy. Worked for me at least. Hope it helps.

-zip

[gplasky]

All of these problems can be avoided by stopping the SageTV service first BEFORE installing the java update. Make sure SageTV servcie and any java-based service is stopped. If you can't uninstall java then just delete the directory. Now download the java 6 build 12 update from the java site and run the installer. After you are done reboot your machine.

Gerry

[JREkiwi]

Using Control Panel\Administrative Tools\Services, Disable the SageTV service.
Restart the machine.
Uninstall Java
Restart the machine.
Go to java.com and install Java
Enable the SageTV service.
Start SageTV

John

[Diego Garcia]

A big thank you to everyone who pointed out the interlinked dependency between the SageTV service and Java.

Once I saw the initial post about the interaction I immediately thought to shutdown the service and change it from Autostart to Manual.

The interesting thing, however, is after an hour or so whatever wait state that was under the hang condition timed out or gave up or something, because I was able to uninstall Java 6u12 without doing anything to the service.

This leads me to conclude the service is waiting on something, or retrying something that's not working with certain versions of Java, and then ultimately timing out. If so, I hope Sage fixes the problem. Yes, the workarounds are pretty straightforward once you know about them...but those kinds of dependencies are a devil to identify ("which 'n' of the 'x' processes in the machine are in a mutual deadlock?"), and should be avoided by redesigning the way the code is checking for whatever it's checking for in the Java runtime.

[JREkiwi]

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

This leads me to conclude the service is waiting on something, or retrying something that's not working with certain versions of Java, and then ultimately timing out. If so, I hope Sage fixes the problem.

It's a Java problem, not a SageTV problem. The Java 6 update 11 would not install if SageTV was still running. Update 12 doesn't do that and ends up not updating the files that are in use.

John

[gplasky]

And you would see the same issue with any application left running that uses java.

Gerry

[Diego Garcia]

There are several reasons why I believe it is up to Sage to resolve, or at least deal with, this issue:

- Java is an application framework. When application writers build their wares, they often have to program around problems in such frameworks. That's part of the price, in practice, of adopting a framework.

- I didn't buy Java. I did buy Sage.

I'd be interested in hearing more about the plumbing that's causing this situation to arise. It sure sounds like some kind of mutual deadlock problem, which should be fixable from either side of the "equation".

[SafetyBob]

Glad to see I wasn't the only one with this problem. I had a completely stable uninterupted SageTV experience since I installed version 5.0.4 (yes, that was a while ago). It worked until last night when I stupidly installed that latest Java version.

Believe it or not, my version 5 user manual suggests uninstalling all Java updates and installing the latest version. I did manage to do that this morning and installed Java 6 update 12 from the sun website. It works now so I am happy. I could not find Java 1.4 as the user manual suggested because Sun doesn't support it anymore.

I don't plan on any more Java updates either.

Bob E.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by Diego Garcia

I'd be interested in hearing more about the plumbing that's causing this situation to arise. It sure sounds like some kind of mutual deadlock problem, which should be fixable from either side of the "equation".

No, it's not a mutual deadlock. As JREkiwi explained above, the problem arises from a bug in the Java installer. If Java is running (via SageTVService or any other Java app) when the installer is run, it fails to update all the necessary files and the result is a corrupt Java installation. There's not much the Sage devs can do to code defensively against this; they're entitled to assume that the platform they run on is installed correctly.

If your position is that Sage is responsible for providing you with a working version of Java, then stick with the version installed by Sage and don't update it.

[Opus4]

Because of this topic & a few others like it, I have added a new FAQ and sticky for this issue:

FAQ: How do I update Java on my Windows PC?

Temporary sticky: Installing Java Updates for SageTV

You can reply here or in the sticky discussion topic if you have suggestions for what I've written.

- Andy

[JREkiwi]

Andy, just one addition. As SageTVServiceControl.exe is a Java app, that should be closed too.

John

[Opus4]

Thanks -- I've added lines for that.

- Andy

[scat]

Originally Posted by Opus4

Because of this topic & a few others like it

Opus4

Here is a question about Sage and Java:

When updating Sage if Sage needs a new version of Java will the SageUpdate.exe update the java to the required version it needs?

Also it would be nice if when I list my information via : Help>System Information
it would list java like this:

Java Version: Required: 1.6.0_07 Installed: 1.6.0_12



Scat

[Opus4]

Originally Posted by scat

When updating Sage if Sage needs a new version of Java will the SageUpdate.exe update the java to the required version it needs?

I added that to the Java update FAQ:

What version of Java do I need for SageTV?

- Andy

[stevech]

I wish developers would not use Java.

[GKusnick]

Originally Posted by stevech

I wish developers would not use Java.

I wish pop singers wouldn't use that whiny, nasal voice. Funny thing is, wishing doesn't seem to stop them. Maybe not buying their CDs would work better.

[malbec]

Make sure you shut down the Comskip monitor service as well. This was what I have been banging my head against while going through this issue this weekend.