Why choose SageTV?

[Innocence]

Hi all

I know this forum is bound to be biased, but I'm currently underway building a multimedia TV solution for the entire household.

I'll place the multimediaserver (containing analogue and DVB-C digital TV-tuners for (SD+HD) live TV and recording, pictures, music etc.) locked up in the cellar, and I'll be using some kind of Ethernet wired hardware extenders for the TV's around the house.

I've been reading several forums, reviews etc. and I think I narrowed down the choice to either using the Vista Media Center (server PC is running Vista Home Premium 64-bit), or buying SageTV software.

Both systems pretty much offer the same features on paper, although it seems SageTV, unlike VMC, is able to record and display several channels within the same MUX (thus possibly reducing number of necessary tuners). Only problem I see with SageTV is that while HD extenders exist (STX-HD100 and the upcoming upgrade), apparently they're produced in too few numbers and are constantly sold out - and I really don't want to build my own extender

My questions are:
1) Apart from the MUX issue, are there any reason to choose SageTV over VMC? Are there other important features missing from VMC since you're running SageTV?
2) Anyone know if the "SageTV extender unavailability" issue going to be resolved soon? Is it possible to use other extenders for SageTV, ie. like the HP extender used for VMC? I live in Denmark (Europe) btw.

Hope this is the correct subforum for these question, otherwise feel free to move it

[dgeezer]

Living in the States I can't really address the first question. I switched from GBpvr not too long ago and still monitor their forums. The latest release of GBpvr does support multiple recordings from one ts stream so I am sure that SageTV will have this capability soon if not already.

I have played with VMC but never really used it on a daily basis but it seems that one big reason to use SageTV over VMC is the far greater ease of incorporating plugins like comskip.

The HD100 extender is the entire reason I switched from GBpvr. It offers a locked down direct connection to my headless server running XP in the basement. My wife and daughter can't screw it up. Well so far...

I bought my current extender by signing up for the email alert and had no problems getting one that time. I like it so well that I am going to buy another to replace the client pc hooked up to our second TV.

[jaminben]

Originally Posted by Innocence

1) Apart from the MUX issue, are there any reason to choose SageTV over VMC? Are there other important features missing from VMC since you're running SageTV?

Sage doesnt record or enable you to watch diffrent channels within the same mux. You will require one tuner card per channel that you want to watch or record. I beleive VMC only allows you to have a maximum of 2 tuners where Sage allows many more. (I have eight in my machine)

Originally Posted by Innocence

2) Anyone know if the "SageTV extender unavailability" issue going to be resolved soon? Is it possible to use other extenders for SageTV, ie. like the HP extender used for VMC? I live in Denmark (Europe) btw.

I think Sage are about to release a newer updated batch of the extenders in Dec sometime which is one reason why they dont have any in stock at the moment.

I personaly prefer Sage over all others because it just works, however its not perfect and does have a few issues but nothing that would stop me recommending it to others. Also the forum is very good and most people will help out if you get any problems.

[DavDes]

Other point is that Vista Media Center doesn't play ripped DVD by default. You need to tweak Vista, add transcoders, DLLs, hack registry, and so on. Yes it can works, sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes on PC only but never on extender. With somes files, but no others. With some connections (HDMI, RCA, Components, SPDIF,...), but not others.
Tested sadly with D-Link DSM-750.

[GKusnick]

I haven't used VMC, but for me what makes Sage a no-brainer is the customizability. There's a wide variety of third-party add-ons, mods, and themes, and if you don't find what you like among those you can build your own custom UI from the ground up.

[tchapin]

I think that VMC supports more than 2 tuners. It might support up to 5? I'll ask a friend of mine who has VMC.

Todd

[mickp]

Some things that come to mind as advantages for SAGE over MCE;

Software client; You can run a full client on pc's around the house (or remotely with placeshifter) and receive the full Sage (and SageMC) experience without resorting to hardware extenders or xbox 360's. Even if you plan to use a hardware extender, it's very nice to have the option of putting the client onto other machines about the house.

Support for the Hauppauge HD-PVR; Allows for hd recording via analog component outputs without draconian drm restrictions. Not supported on Vista MCE now (likely never). As you're not in the states, you can probably get by with DVB-B or DVB-C devices for cable/sat recording but it's nice to know that you have an option to record hd from a Set Top Box if required.

Multi platform support; Sage runs on Windows (including WHS), linux and Mac platforms.

I'm sure there are others worth mentioning.

Mick.

[swats]

IMHO the advantage of SageTv is that it is not embedded in an OS. I have used MCE2005 and VMC and I need to do a wipe every 10-12 months because things break or don't work right any more. With Sage being Java based (I have mine on a dedicated server) it just works, night and day, with no surprises. Couple that with a killer HD extender (I am sure the new one will be even better) and no tuner limit or restrictions (i.e. HD-PVR) and it was an easy decision for me.

[Innocence]

Originally Posted by swats

it just works, night and day, with no surprises.

Indeed stability is key

no tuner limit or restrictions (i.e. HD-PVR) and it was an easy decision for me.

Speaking of which, do you have any recommendations regarding choice of tuners for SageTV? I'll need DVB-C tuners capable of using an Irdeto CAM. Someone told me FireDTV tuners is the only viable choice with this setup, but they're awfully pricey

[wayner]

Another issue with VMC (or XP MC) is DRM although I don't know if this is an issue in Europe. Here in North America there is something called CGMS-A that is a type of DRM. There are strict rules about how this can be used in the USA but there are no rules in Canada and some broadcasters seem to arbitrarily set this flag which means that you cannot record a show. Windows flavours of Media Centre seem to be the only ones that look for this flag.

VMC also uses its own proprietary file format which can cause issues - it is much better using a common file format such as MPEG.

VMC also is more limited in the types of files that it supports and is less likely to support BluRay or even BluRay rips.

[mickp]

Originally Posted by Innocence

Indeed stability is key
Speaking of which, do you have any recommendations regarding choice of tuners for SageTV? I'll need DVB-C tuners capable of using an Irdeto CAM. Someone told me FireDTV tuners is the only viable choice with this setup, but they're awfully pricey

There doesn't seem to be much choice out there

Selected highlights from the Sage site re: supported hardware;

Technotrend Budget C-1500 (supports PayTV through CAM/CI)
Technotrend DVB-T/C 1300 (supports PayTV through CAM/CI)
FireDTV DVB-C/CI (supports PayTV through CAM/CI)
FloppyDTV C/CI (supports PayTV through CAM/CI)
Technotrend Budget C-1500 (supports PayTV through CAM/CI)
Technotrend DVB-T/C 1300 (supports PayTV through CAM/CI)

Most other BDA based DVB-T/C/S cards should work with Version 6.2 or later but may not have been tested. If you have tested a specific card that is not listed, please report your findings to us at support@sagetv.com.

I don't use dvb-c so hopefully someone who does will be able to comment.

Mick.

[hockeyfan]

I have ran Windows Media Center for 2 years (First XP, then Vista). I can say from my experience it did what it said it would do and it was stable.

However, HD caused me to branch away from MS. My personal experience with Sage is that it is way more customizable. Little things like flipping commericial skip on/off in menus and adding extra commands to IR channel changes.

The lack of broadcast flags is really nice. My kid was rejected from recording a 'repeat' SpongeBob Squarepants in VMCE due to broadcast flags.

I used to watch TV on my comp from the server using WebGuide. I remember checking the CPU usage while doing this when my family was watching TV in the living room and the WebGuide would trottle the core 2 duo to 100%. With SageClient there is very low usage (not even sure it cracked 10%), that was actually the factor that made me a believer.

The only thing where MS is a leader is User Interface, it is fast and clean. But I've found functionality and customization to be more important than how clean and fast the menus look and change.

What I find more impressive about Sage all the time is what you can customize, I'll just browse the forums and learn something new. Sometimes I wish they had a 'Sage Bible' where I could just read it all.

[wayner]

I concur with hockeyfan - I have been using XP MCE for about 2 years and I got tired of the lack of HD, except for OTA (there is no CableCard here in Canada), and I got tired of the DRM issues that were affecting many Canadians. I am very happy with Sage although I also agree that the UI could use an improvement. The only other downside is the playback of H.264 files is sometimes rather stuttery.

But I only wish you could buy Sage Extenders - they haven't been available since it looked like Hilary Clinton was going to be the next president.

[swats]

Originally Posted by Innocence

Indeed stability is key
Speaking of which, do you have any recommendations regarding choice of tuners for SageTV? I'll need DVB-C tuners capable of using an Irdeto CAM. Someone told me FireDTV tuners is the only viable choice with this setup, but they're awfully pricey

I am not really familiar with DVB-C tuners, as we don't use them here. Do you have the option to get a set top box which you could then connect to a HD-PVR?

[swats]

Originally Posted by wayner

The only other downside is the playback of H.264 files is sometimes rather stuttery.

For what it's worth, I was having problems with stuttery h.264 playback as well, but I now have perfect playback after switching from the ArcSoft to PowerDVD 7.x codec, and using the BETA Sagetv splitter with overlay. YMMV.

[Innocence]

Originally Posted by swats

Do you have the option to get a set top box which you could then connect to a HD-PVR?

But then wont I be limited to watching/recording one channel? I've read the HD-PVR product specification, but honestly I'm not sure what it's for - or maybe it's because I don't know the difference between a cable-receiver and a set top box