Leadtek WinFast PxVC1100

[reggie14]

News reports have been circulating about this device for a while, but I haven't seen any posts here. Leadtek has been demonstrating a card with a scaled-down Cell processor that can encode and decode H.264, MPEG2 and MPEG4. It's not entirely clear what it's capabilities are. For instance, I haven't seen anything that directly says it can encode and decode at high-definition resolutions. It also doesn't look like it has a video input.

Still, I think it's interesting. Apparently Leadtek is serious about selling this, but they don't have software to go with it

Here's a link to a story about it, but it's pretty light on details.

[wayner]

I don't understand exactly what this card does but could something like this be used as an encoder for HD content, not unlike the HD-PVR?

According to the article "Leadtek says that the card will enable both encoding and transcoding at speeds that are ‘faster than real-time.'" That sounds very usefl for Sage.

http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/60496...ci-e-card.html

* merged *

[jessecoffey]

Sounds like it does just what it says "transcodes at speeds that are faster than real-time."
So if you have a bunch of mpeg and you want it to be H.264 than it will do it faster than your CPU can.

Just offloading a specific job to a card that is designed to do it better. Same we reason we all have video cards.

[wayner]

But if it encodes, as well as transcodes, then doesn't that imply that it has to have some way of getting unencoded (i.e. analog) video into it? And how would you do that without video inputs? I guess it could have an NTSC tuner but that will be obsolete before this card hits the market.

[voidpt]

The card takes a variant of the Cell processor made by Toshiba, an hardware/software solution called SpursEngine. This card by itself has no connection to any analog inputs or outputs.

The good thing about the Cell processor is that you can program it to do massive repetative operations in paralell. Without using much power. Meaning if you want to do the same operations on a general Intel/AMD x86 CPU you would consume much more power, and hog the processor. One thing you can make it do is probably 'RAW Video' -> MPEG2/4, MPEG2 -> MPEG4, MPEG4 -> MPEG2, MPEG4 -> MPEG4. But its worth nothing without a software package that supports all through an exposed API. Doing this from ground up is complicated. So I think Toshiba with its SpursEngine delivers this. Haven't lookup much into it.

I guess one of the possible uses for SageTV would be if it could tie in the transcoder operations through this solution. That way you could watch HD recordings on the Placeshifter without problems. The Cell would chew through the transcoding without problems. And the Intel/AMD x86 CPU can be left for other things.

When it comes to interaction with analog input. Well. Everything is possible. SageTV could as an example grab the highest possible quality video mode from an analog input source. And then just feed it through the Cell/SpursEngine to get the wanted MPEG2/MPEG4 compression.

But all this is dependent on a stable good software solution. Hardware is worth nothing without software. And doing a stable software solution is often the most difficult part. The time and labour for a good software solution often cost more than the hardware parts and production in itself.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by voidpt

I guess one of the possible uses for SageTV would be if it could tie in the transcoder operations through this solution. That way you could watch HD recordings on the Placeshifter without problems. The Cell would chew through the transcoding without problems. And the Intel/AMD x86 CPU can be left for other things.

This would be probably the best solution for Sage. For those of us considering upgrading our (decent) servers just to handle transcoding for Placeshifter and MediaMVP transcoding, this could (depending on price) save us some cash (or at least it would be easier than rebuilding a rig). However, I imagine it will be a long time before Sage would add support for it....just a guess though!

[SHS]

There have been other product just like the one above and with hardware transcoding tech but funny thing was it never made it to US and frist was from Vidac (Highcost) Vmagic then Canopus Ultra Encoder X2000.
One made it to US but you can't it buy it by it self you must buy the system in order to get Dell Xcelerator.
I wouldn't count on it makng it way to US I'm sure MPAA and RIAA will put a stop it.

[stanger89]

Wonder how it compares to Badaboom on an nVidia GTX 260/280 (or even 9x00)?

[voidpt]

Originally Posted by stanger89

Wonder how it compares to Badaboom on an nVidia GTX 260/280 (or even 9x00)?

To me the power consumption when idle (& running) would be important. I guess some of the low-range NVidia could work. Even though I have my server hidden away it does run 24x7. Would like a passive cooled solution. Also the compatiblity of the solution to work through any MP4/H.264/MPEG2 served to it would need to be good. Going to be interesting to see the H.264/VC-1 solutions work itself out in software/hardware. Reminds me a little of the early days of DVD/MPEG2 playback on PC's with cards that had decoding and hardware overlays because the CPU's couldn't handle it. If Intel/AMD gets enough cores in CPU's they might 'win' again. Time will show

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by SHS

I wouldn't count on it makng it way to US I'm sure MPAA and RIAA will put a stop it.

I don't think so. First of all, the RIAA wouldn't have any interest in this area. Second, the MPAA wouldn't bother blocking a device that only transcodes. I haven't seen any credible reports that they threatened Hauppauge. Plus, while I disagree with the MPAA, they've been less ravenous than the RIAA.

Instead, I think the MPAA would just use another product like the HD-PVR as further evidence to point to when they argue for their long-term goal: plugging the analog hole.

[SHS]

Really why do you think that Sigma Designs got out make PC Hardware Decoder I can in sure it not what think and let just say it had something to do with MPAA, RIAA and MPEGLA.
You watch and see it will not get far and in Japan which has tech like that most us would die for and this kind stuff has been round for number of years over in Japan which something not new to them.
We would have had real time hardware transcodes a few ago but you see there are 3 key players and all 3 are up there.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by SHS

Really why do you think that Sigma Designs got out make PC Hardware Decoder I can in sure it not what think and let just say it had something to do with MPAA, RIAA and MPEGLA.

That doesn't make any sense. Sigma Designs didn't get in trouble for their hardware decoder cards for PCs. If I remember correctly, they got in trouble for selling CSS chips that made their way into DVD copying equipment.

The MPAA, and the rest of the DRM crowd, would love it if everyone had to use hardware-based crypto and decoder chips to play back videos and audio files. As the AACS industry found out, putting that stuff in software is dangerous. They'd love it if they knew the decryption keys were safe on protected hardware crypto modules. You can implement pretty effective DRM if you have some trusted hardware on a computer. That's half of what TPMs are all about.

But again, even the MPAA wouldn't have a strong interest at stopping fast hardware-based transcoder. CPU's are already too fast for it to matter. They might care about real-time encoders with component inputs, but the fact that US-based Hauppauge hasn't gotten sued out of existence causes me to think that the MPAA has already set their sights on closing the analog hole

You watch and see it will not get far and in Japan which has tech like that most us would die for and this kind stuff has been round for number of years over in Japan which something not new to them.

That's true with all kinds of stuff. Just look at the cell phones they have there. I think that shows that what's really going on isn't a conspiracy by the MPAA and RIAA, but instead a market issue. The Japanese buy that kind of stuff- Americans don't.

We would have had real time hardware transcodes a few ago but you see there are 3 key players and all 3 are up there.

Again, it seems far more likely that there just isn't a big enough market for that kind of stuff- particularly in the US.

[SHS]

It had nothing to do with CSS chips at the time.
I belive it was about Video Interface Port (VIP) why do think some of newer Xcard no longer come with the VIP Pins on board then a few short mouth later went buy and all Xcard where stop been made.
By the way there have been a few big announced on newer PC base hardware h264/HD decoder but guest what agine nothing for PC and I think that was 2 years ago.

CPU's are already too fast for it to matter

Not in RealTime transcoding they are no where close to hardware-based transcoder.

[reggie14]

Originally Posted by SHS

By the way there have been a few big announced on newer PC base hardware h264/HD decoder but guest what agine nothing for PC and I think that was 2 years ago.

I understand why the MPAA, etc., would be nervous about encoders and video capture devices, but why would they care about H.264 and mpeg2 decoders? Particularly ones that don't have AACS implementations?

And why would anyone sell hardware decoders these days? I'm not saying they wouldn't be useful, but I do think they'd have a hard time selling them.

Not in RealTime transcoding they are no where close to hardware-based transcoder.

Well, I still say real-time transcoding isn't terribly useful. If you already have the video file, it doesn't matter from a piracy perspective if it takes 2 hours or 10 hours to transcode a movie into H.264.

Real-time encoding is pretty useful though. You can even encode 1080i mpeg2 in real-time without terribly powerful hardware. I don't think you can do real-time H.264 in HD with today's CPUs, but we're not that far off (and again, it doesn't really matter from a piracy perspective if we can already do mpeg2).

I'm still pretty confused why you think the MPAA would come after Leadtek when they haven't come after Hauppauge. I'm also confused why you think they'd be successful if they did. I don't know the story behind the VIP on the Xcards, but it seems to me Sigma already signed their rights away when they included CSS on the Xcard. Take that away and it seems like the MPAA loses its power.

Of course, for something like the PxVC1100 to be useful to the general public, they'd probably need CSS and AACS on it, in which case then I do think the MPAA might have the power and desire to stop it. Otherwise, I'm still at a loss for why you think the MPAA would be remotely interested in stopping a hardware transcoder (unless they add a video input, but even then its still just like the HD-PVR).

[SHS]

And why would anyone sell hardware decoders these days? I'm not saying they wouldn't be useful, but I do think they'd have a hard time selling them.

Low end PC and even High end PC both older and newer PC
As we all know software decoding dosen't work well for everyone

2 hours or 10 hours to transcode a movie into H.264

Things is hardware-based transcoder will be in a matter of min's not hours that by it self that is a big saving and would very useful in video editor like timeline cut then output and for adding video effects, filters and imaging techniques and god omly know what eles it may do.

As for PC Tuner take time read this look closes at page 8/9
http://www.consumersunion.org/pdf/internet-priv.pdf

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by reggie14

And why would anyone sell hardware decoders these days? I'm not saying they wouldn't be useful, but I do think they'd have a hard time selling them.
).

Let's also not forget, that running a software encoder takes up your whole pc. You are virtually unable to do anything with your pc while its running. No matter whether it is a high end or a low end. If you have a hardware encoder, the only thing that is used up is the hard drive and some cpu cycles for driving the PCIE device and controlling the hard drive controller (very minimal on a multi-core pc) and leaves your pc available to still play games / surf the internet / etc. If you do a lot of encoding, it is almost like having to pc's, with the power requirements and the outright cost!

[reggie14]

SHS-

You would agree that real-time video capture over component is pretty much the MPAA's worst nightmare, right? It pretty much guarantees that you can't do terribly meaningful DRM without closing the analog hole. So, how is Hauppauge immune to the MPAA's magical powers? Do you think it's just a matter of time before they're sued? What do you think the MPAA's legal argument would be in the suit?

To be honest, I can imagine a way that the MPAA could scare off Leadtek that wouldn't be effective against Hauppauge. Leadtek makes video cards, and HDCP is quickly becoming the norm on cards. You can imagine the MPAA threatening to block Leadtek's ability to support HDCP, although even that is a little conspiracy theoryish, given the MPAA doens't have a lot of control over that.

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Let's also not forget, that running a software encoder takes up your whole pc. You are virtually unable to do anything with your pc while its running. No matter whether it is a high end or a low end.

First of all, the sentence you quoted was on hardware decoders. Even so, I am also asserting hardware transcoders (not capture cards and encoders, but transcoders specifically), aren't terribly useful either. The main advantage, as you point out, seems to be that you could use the computer for other tasks while you transcode things. But, I can already do that on my Q6600 computer. I can queue up handbrake and I can't even notice it while I do normal computing tasks. It can even run while I have Sage open, playing 1080i mpeg2 video (using hardware acceleration, though). I don't game very often, but I assume transcoding would have a pretty serious negative effect while gaming. But at that point you've gotten to a very, very niche market. I think you'd have a hard time convincing people to drop $200 on a hardware transcoder, rather than a faster CPU/video card, or spending that money to turn an older PC into a dedicated transcoder.

[SHS]

You would agree that real-time video capture over component is pretty much the MPAA's worst nightmare, right?

Yes I'm sure it is

It pretty much guarantees that you can't do terribly meaningful DRM without closing the analog hole.

That rigth

how is Hauppauge immune to the MPAA's magical powers?

Good Q I don't know but it is 100% Legal rigth now

Do you think it's just a matter of time before they're sued?

They can't sued if it 100% Legal
They need have law changes and that not going happing and they can't outlaw equipment that all already in use if did manager to get some kind law pass this year which is not going be a good thing for consumer electronics industry due the fact that it a real threat to min other prodact.

What do you think the MPAA's legal argument would be in the suit?

Most likey about piracy just like every thing else they do.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by SHS

Low end PC and even High end PC both older and newer PC
As we all know software decoding dosen't work well for everyone

Ummm... Even a lowly P3 600 can playback a DVD in real-time with a software decoder. No X-card needed. The main reason Sigma Designs went by the wayside is because their product lost it's market. Not that there was much of a market there to begin with. DVD decoder cards were a niche product for a niche market.

Why would you want an add-on card when a cheaper piece of software can do a better job. No VGA pass-through with quality loss. And with the advent of LCD's and DVI made VGA pass-through as obsolete as ever.

I wouldn't say there is no use for a hardware decoder. Certainly there are applications such as video surveillance that could need such a thing. But with modern processors it takes very little to decode an NTSC video stream. So little that it is negligible.

Let's not forget that the the one thing the X-card could not do that it's predecessor the Hollywood Plus could do was video overlay in a window. The X-card was stuck with full screen video. No issues like that with a software decoder.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Ummm... Even a lowly P3 600 can playback a DVD in real-time with a software decoder. No X-card needed.

Exactly. Software works "good enough" for the big boys like Dell and the rest. It's got nothing to do with copy protection. If anything the content industry would prefer the use of hardware decoders, as if they did the decryption it would be much harder to crack them.

The main reason Sigma Designs went by the wayside is because their product lost it's market. Not that there was much of a market there to begin with. DVD decoder cards were a niche product for a niche market.

Sigma Designs is alive and well, they just dropped the PC market. They make SOCs for Blu-ray players and STBs, including the HD extender.