Newbee's Status after 1 week of SageTV

[bmac.to]

Everyone,

I thought I would put together a post explaining the experiences I have had getting SageTV up and running over the past week. I have never tried any PVR software on any computer before, but I do have the PVR from my local cable company (it is a POS) so my expectation was to at least achieve that type of user experience.

I have an external antenna which picks up a ton of ATSC and NTSC channels - enough that my goal is to turn off cable TV and return their PVR. In order to turn off cable, I wanted to get an OTA PVR running (once you have a PVR, it is hard to go back). I did some research and ended up picking SageTV for a few reasons.
1. it looked as though the EPG was the most flexible (I live in an area that receives both US and Canadian channels and I have never seen a standard lineup that matches what I can receive). Plus the listings come from zap2it and look of decent quality.
2. this forum looks as though there should be a lot of help
3. the possibility of using the media extender

I decided to build a brand new box for this PVR so the hardware is all of recent vintage (some of it too new in fact).
.AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+
.Sapphire Radeon 4850
.two 1TB harddrives in a RAID0 config
.Hauppauge HVR-2250 tuner card connected only to OTA
.4GB of ram
.MS Vista Ultimate 64-bit

This box is connected to a HDTV plasma and an amp which supports DTS/DD through SPDIF.

I started with Sage 6.3 with limited success - the tuner card was not well supported. I then moved to 6.4.6 with much greater success. The first thing I had to do was setup the 4 tuners (2 analog, 2 digital) and their respective channel lists. This required grabbing the channel IDs from the zap2it webpage and a bunch of manual edits. I then was able to watch television.

Next I noticed none of the channels supported 5.1 audio. This required me to run the ac3setup command in order to turn on passthrough. I then noticed that was no sound at all on any of the NTSC (analog) channels - this required either a change to the ac3setup or to the audio decoder delection (I cant remember which change did it).

I then started to work on setting up my remote control - I bought a Zalman case which said their remote was MCE compatible but it did not work out-of-the-box with SageTV. This required a manual setup of almost every key on the remote to work with SageTV correctly (this setup was done in a piece of Zalman software) and is not a fault of SageTV.

Finally I started to focus on the video quality. First off I noticed that the CPU was definitely doing a lot of work (40% utilization) with the default SageTV MPEG2 decoder. Plus the picture quality wasnt great - some more smearing than I am used to plus some random stuttering. I tried the Hauppauge decoder plus the PowerDVD decoder with similar results. I then enabled the Microsoft decoder in the sagetv.properties file and gave that a shot. Again I wasnt overly pleased with the results and the stuttering was unacceptable. BTW, I tried all types of overlays and FSE and never could find a combination of settings that removed the stuttering all together.

I then downloaded the ATI decoders and actually was much happier with the quality - there is no stuttering but the CPU utilization was still too high. Regardless, I began then to try and put SageTV through it's paces. First thing I noticed that at random times (somewhere between 5 and 25 minutes), the video would freeze but the audio would continue. Changing the channel would correct this but this was unnaceptable. I got on this forum and noticed a new beta release was available (6.4.7) so I gave that a shot. This video freeze has since only happened once in a couple of hours so it seems like it is a lot better.

So all is good, right? Not quite ... one major downside with the ATI decoders is that the time it takes to change a channel is around 10 seconds. Choosing any other decoder results in a channel change in 4-5 seconds. I thought 4-5 seconds was too slow but 10 seconds is ridiculous - the family will not accept this. I wish SageTV would change the channel and then worry about recording - this is how the cable company's PVR works - after you change a channel it is impossible to rewind back to the beginning of what you saw when you first began to watch the channel.

I have begin to play with the GraphEdit software, the Directshow Filter Manager, and go through a bunch of recommendations I found on the forum (starting with GollyJer's posts). I want to be able to use the MPEG hardware acceleration, and get a MPEG decoder setup that doesnt studder, has good quality, and changes channels quickly. I might try the ArcSoft decoders, or the NVidia decoders, or others. Plus I noticed on this forum that the cluster size of the harddrives (64kb) could be an issue - I am not sure I buy this as the issue since the ATI decoder doesnt have the studder problem but I may give it a shot. Plus the 64-bit version of Vista may require 64-bit versions of the MPEG decoders in order to properly take advantage of hardware assist - there is not much to do about this except wait for support.

Hope this post is helpful for someone.

BTW, if anyone has some recommendations for me to try and fix my issues, please feel free.

Thanks.
________
Honda rc171

[Brent]

fwiw, it is not normal for it to take 4-5 seconds and more to change channels. I'd say there is still something not quite right if its taking channel changes that long. For my setup it takes about 1-2 seconds at most for channel changes (exception: Hauppauge HD-PVR using IR Blaster takes about 2-5 seconds to channel change)

I'll have to check to see what decoders I'm using when I get home.

[dadof4]

I fairly new to SageTV also...about 45 days. I set up the trial using my old Celeron P4 2.93GHZ with an ATI 9550 AGP card. It actually worked fairly well. I had been running BeyondTV on the same PC for close to three years. I was getting some minor stuttering on my Sony XBR4. I played musical decoders but did not have any success. I set up an MVP unit I already had on one of our SD sets and it worked so well I was sold.

I decided to try out an HD100 extender. It originally stuttered also, but after updating the firmware it was smooth as silk. I still have a few minor issues but compared to my old setup I'm thrilled with the performance and flexibility (spelled EXTENDERS).

My suggestion to you is go with an HD100 extender. One mistake I did make is to get another MVP for one of our SD sets. I should have bit the bullet and gone with another HD100 so I could record in HD and watch it on an SD set.

I also have found the Harmony 500 remote (~$60 Ebay) to work well with the HD100, MVP and my home theather setup.

Good luck with SageTV.

[PGPfan]

One of the first things I'd try to do is ditch the 64-bit OS. For media systems, it usually brings nothing but headaches due to limited driver support.

-PGPfan

[ghostlobster]

That rig should not lock up at all. Is this a new build, or has it been working in another function before? My first thought would be RAM settings or bad RAM. Pull out 2 sticks at a time and run it for a day or 2, and swap them around.

Regarding the video issue, what is your desktop resolution set to? also, how are you outputting to your TV (component, DVI, HDMI, etc?)

In Vista, I've found the MS decoders to be pretty stable, and pretty clear. No tearing, no smearing, and pretty responsive. The Cyberlink decoders are OK as well. Just make sure you enable hardware accelleration within Sage as well as within the Cyberlink Power DVD app if you go that direction.

[bmac.to]

Regarding the 64-bit OS - I thought long and hard about whether or not I should go 64-bit and from what I could tell, in Vista the 64-bit support appears to be as good as the 32-bit support. Plus all of my hardware had support for the 64-bit version. In XP, it was a completely different story but I think times are a changin.

This is a brand new build so it is possible the ram could be bad. However, the lockups I have seen are video only - in my previous experience ram problems are a lot more severe.

I am driving out 1080i through component to my television. Plus this is an extended desktop with a small LCD panel on the case (I think 1024x768).

I tried the MS decoders as well but I dont believe I spent much time on them - I go have another look.

Thanks.
________
XXX STREAM

[PGPfan]

I understand what you are saying about Vista having basically complete 64-bit drivers, however these won't exactly be 'mature' drivers like in the 32-bit versions.

Just my experience.trying 64-bit.

-PGPfan

[kevine]

Originally Posted by PGPfan

I understand what you are saying about Vista having basically complete 64-bit drivers, however these won't exactly be 'mature' drivers like in the 32-bit versions.

Just my experience.trying 64-bit.

-PGPfan

I agree. I hear complaint after complaint on forums not having Vista 64 bit support for drivers. Unless I was going to setup a box I never wanted to upgrade again, I would use 32-bit. However, that may be changing bmac.to stated.

[Taddeusz]

Your 4GB of RAM may be the problem. I'm not sure about their newer products but the older Hauppauge PVR cards have problems in systems with 4GB or more of RAM. Not sure if this problem still exists with current cards though.

[gibsonpa]

I have vista x64 and have Sage rock solid for the last 6 months or so..with 4 extenders, usb-uirt, dish sat, and ota.

However, I did have issues when first setting it up like a previous poster mentioned....I had vista x64 with 4Gigs Ram and two Hauppauge 1600 tuner cards.

It was frustrating...but in the end was a Hauppauge driver issue. There are some updated drivers around that fix the issue. They were beta when I used them...not sure if they are official yet or not.

Don't have the version/link in front of me now...at work.

[pjpjpjpj]

For OTA only, I highly recommend the HD Homerun. Setup was super-easy, I have had no problems with anything. It changes channels almost instantly through Sage. Plus (and I don't know if this applies to you), since it's a network device, you can put it closer to your antenna and cut down on the length of lossy coax cable, thereby helping with your reception.

It's ATSC only though - but that won't matter next year.

And on the HD Extender suggestions, +1. Get one, you'll be glad you did.

[Taddeusz]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

It's ATSC only though - but that won't matter next year.

Not quite true. The HDHR is ATSC and QAM capable. It does not do analog TV at all though.

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by bmac.to

.two 1TB harddrives in a RAID0 config

Having recently lost a single 500 gb drive I feel comfortable saying that running 2 tb in a stripe is a bad idea. Its one thing for a boot volume to be in a stripe when you have recovery images, but for large disks, I'd say you've just doubled your chances for a catastrophic failure for little reason.

To say the least its super inconvenient to loose half a season of your favorite recordings at once. I can't imagine loosing 2 tb of data all at once. Hopefully you don't have anything there that is important. For my new server I got a fast raptor for the OS drive and put the big disks as tv video storage only. For things that I want to make sure to keep I have usb backup disks and folder mirrors set up on different machines.

64kb blocks can help, but you can test without reformatting by simply defragging a test file. The theory is that a larger sector size makes the disk head spend lest time seeking. A defragged file will have all its bits in a row anyway.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

64kb blocks can help, but you can test without reformatting by simply defragging a test file. The theory is that a larger sector size makes the disk head spend lest time seeking. A defragged file will have all its bits in a row anyway.

That is assuming the drive is doing nothing but reading a single (defragged) media file. As soon as the drive has to do any other concurrent task, you are potentially back to lots of head movement. The 64K blocks help ensure there is enough data buffered to keep it stutter-free until the drive has time to service another read request.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Taddeusz

Not quite true. The HDHR is ATSC and QAM capable. It does not do analog TV at all though.

True, Taddeusz, but I was speaking in reference to the original post where he said "...I have an external antenna which picks up a ton of ATSC and NTSC channels - enough that my goal is to turn off cable TV..." I was assuming from that statement that he'd be antenna only, and therefore the HDHR use would be ATSC only....

[Humanzee]

Originally Posted by Sam

As soon as the drive has to do any other concurrent task, you are potentially back to lots of head movement. The 64K blocks help ensure there is enough data buffered to keep it stutter-free until the drive has time to service another read request.

All the more reason to keep your OS on a separate physical disk.

[paulbeers]

Originally Posted by Humanzee

All the more reason to keep your OS on a separate physical disk.

Yes, but I have 2 hard drives that are recording drives only and 8 tuners....that means that at any one point there could be as many as 4 data streams recording to each hard drive....that is going to cause severe fragmentation that unless I was defragging every hour 64K clusters is the only way to keep things moving smoothly.

[ke6guj]

Originally Posted by paulbeers

Yes, but I have 2 hard drives that are recording drives only and 8 tuners....that means that at any one point there could be as many as 4 data streams recording to each hard drive

Actually, depending on free space, all 8 streams could be going to one drive.

[Humanzee]

I wasn't saying not to use 64k, I use 64. I wasn't saying to defrag every hour either. The OP is wondering if it could be disk vs graphics. If he finds a time when sage isn't recording anything, defrags and then can play back a video file that was previously problematic, well then, he will have learned something about his disk use. 64k block size helps yes, defragging can simulate the benefits of that with out having to break his array and reinstall the os.

If you want to talk about best practices,
64k blocks = Yes
Raid 0 recording space on shared volume with the OS = not something I would do.

Your mileage may vary.

[bmac.to]

Thanks for everyone's help.

I know the 2TB stripe drive is a dangerous thing to do - I am considering going to a raid 5 at some point but right now, this is a brand new box and there really isnt any data that is important for me to keep (I will back up the SageTV config files though).

It does sound as though switching channels should not take 8-10 seconds. Through the WinTV app, channel changes are very fast (1-2 seconds) - in fact, this Hauppauge tuner changes channels faster than my television's tuner. I havent much of a chance to play around much with this - I have heard of a debug interface for Sage - will having this interface open shed some light on to where the time is being spent?

About the video freeze where audio is fine - the past four nights there has been a couple of hours of olympic coverage for a total of 6-8 hours and this strange freezing thing only happened twice. Both times changing the channel fixed it - next time it happens, I will try a different method to fix it. Is there a hotkey to restart the video player (like what happens after you make changes in the setup menu)?

I also feel I am going through some driver growing pains - the tuner card is new, the graphics card is new, etc. I will stay alert for driver updates.

Thanks.
________
HOT PENNY STOCKS