SageTV talk on GreenButton

[Brent]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

In general, you are absolutely right.

That's why I'm in the small, looked-down-upon minority around here (being NOT a technophile-gadgetfreak-computer-guru).

Don't get me wrong. I want SageTV to be more for the regular folks too, but I just don't think most have the patience to get the setup just right and all.

Thats why I mentioned a ways back that it would be really nice for SageTV to come out with a pre-configured SageTV Server box that you could plug in and go. Make it open so one could change out a hard drive or two etc, but make it easy. Take that and add the HD Extenders and you have yourself a whole new ballgame imo. I think you could do it with a few minor cleanups of the default UI and not taking away the customization that we all love about SageTV.

[QueOnda]

Originally Posted by Brent

Don't get me wrong. I want SageTV to be more for the regular folks too, but I just don't think most have the patience to get the setup just right and all.

Thats why I mentioned a ways back that it would be really nice for SageTV to come out with a pre-configured SageTV Server box that you could plug in and go. Make it open so one could change out a hard drive or two etc, but make it easy. Take that and add the HD Extenders and you have yourself a whole new ballgame imo. I think you could do it with a few minor cleanups of the default UI and not taking away the customization that we all love about SageTV.

THERE U GO!!!! That exactly would work. Hell, that's what MCE was doing. I have a buddy who doesn't understand or like to tinkering with computers but doesn't like CONcast nor what's a TIVO. This would (if it existed) be for him.

[Wormhoudt]

I have been watching SageTV for quite some time now. As time has gone on living with VMC, I have become more and more disgruntled by the failure to deliver on promises. Microsoft (after the Fiji failure) has promised that nothing new will happen with VMC until the yet-to-be delayed Windows 7. So VMC will remain almost unchanged for 4 years, from the time of the relase of Vista until Windows 7. The only update to functionality being the pathetic Fiji package.

I realize that this is about taste, but I find the UI pretty terrible. I find only MythTv to be worse in that regard. I do however understand that is preference and not absolute fact. My suggestion, as if anyone is asking for it, would be to include a new STV (I think that's the right term) that is more geared toward attracting whatever population of people won't use Sage simply because of its looks. I realize that most would suggest SageMC, but I don't find it any better. I would agree with a previous poster that it is worse than the default UI. Some people might see this hang up as petty, but petty or not the fact is that there is at least some significant number of users that are not using Sage because of this. Add a new STV that has a similar flavor to VMC, and don't make it the default. None of the existing users have a reason to be upset, and people like me will make the switch. I just don't see who it hurts to do this.

I think Sage has MediaCenter bested in most areas. And I will probably end up switching new UI or not. But it is the number one thing that is causing hesitation for me. And I think for quite a few other users as well.

[pjpjpjpj]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

....My suggestion, as if anyone is asking for it, would be to include a new STV (I think that's the right term) that is more geared toward attracting whatever population of people won't use Sage simply because of its looks.... Add a new STV that has a similar flavor to VMC, and don't make it the default. None of the existing users have a reason to be upset, and people like me will make the switch. I just don't see who it hurts to do this.

Coming from the point of view of knowing *nothing* about programming, I can't imagine your suggestion being much different than Windows Media Player having a billion different "skins". Sage just needs to add "skins", right?

stanger - what version of Sage was that??!?

[Wormhoudt]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Coming from the point of view of knowing *nothing* about programming, I can't imagine your suggestion being much different than Windows Media Player having a billion different "skins". Sage just needs to add "skins", right?

I have been a developer for many years, but I know very little about the Sage Environment, other than its use of the JRE, and that there is a skinning utility.

But what I do know is that the majority of the effort in creating a new UI (for Sage or any other application with a complex UI) is not about programming. Its about design. Designing layout and then creating all of the required graphics and animations is very time consuming. So I do realize that it is a non-trivial thing to create a new UI. There may also be limitations to the scope of the skinning engine that prohibit a complete redisign of the UI. That maybe the reason that the UI redesign hasn't happened already. Someone who knows much more about Sage can probably answer this.

Given the care with which Sage has picked its battles in terms of development focus, I would not be suprised if said UI overhaul is already in the pipeline for 7.0

[bialio]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

My suggestion, as if anyone is asking for it, would be to include a new STV (I think that's the right term) that is more geared toward attracting whatever population of people won't use Sage simply because of its looks. I realize that most would suggest SageMC, but I don't find it any better. I would agree with a previous poster that it is worse than the default UI.

I think you have to give SageMC a try for longer than a few minutes before you can really say you like it or not. (I'm not saying that you haven't) It is very flexible as far as appearance. By default it looks kinda like the XP flavor of MCE, but that's easily changed. Go browse the SageMC Screen Shot thread and menu layout repository thread - there really are some pretty slick L&F alternatives there.

From a usability standpoint, I've never used the default STV (other than for configuration) so I can't really compare the two. I do know that my family has a very easy time with SageMC. I've never had to explain how it works......

btl.

[Brent]

I agree with bialo - spend a little more time with SageMC & I think you might change your mind (no promises though )

Here's what I suggest for the newcomers and oldtimers (not sure this is really the proper term, but you know what I mean) as well.

List out the things you don't like about SageMC's UI or SageTV's Default UI (the first step is to understand the difference between these two) - mention the ugly stuff, the "it doesn't work the way I think it should" stuff and how you would prefer it to work and look.

Let's approach it that way because I really think much of the things you don't like about them are things that can be adjusted right now with the multitude of settings and customization available. We might not be able to make it perfect right away, but I'm betting many of the things that annoy you now are things you can fix right now without any coding etc required.

I'm really interested in this subject as I think a big part of the problem is that there are so many things you can customize, many newcomers don't realize how to set them up or where to set them up at. I know there will be some things that will have to be part of a future SageTV 7.0, but lets list those out and give solutions for the things that can be taken care of now.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by pjpjpjpj

Coming from the point of view of knowing *nothing* about programming, I can't imagine your suggestion being much different than Windows Media Player having a billion different "skins". Sage just needs to add "skins", right?

There's a bit more to it than that. While sometime during V6 Sage has made the stock STV more skinnable (using properties files and images, which nobody seems to play with ), but Studio is far more than a skinning tool, it's really somewhere between a Software Develompment Kit and a skinning tool. 90% of Sage's functionality is defined in the STVs.

stanger - what version of Sage was that??!?

That was from 1.4, way back, before Windows MCE IIRC.

Originally Posted by Brent

I agree with bialo - spend a little more time with SageMC & I think you might change your mind (no promises though )

Here's what I suggest for the newcomers and oldtimers (not sure this is really the proper term, but you know what I mean) as well.

List out the things you don't like about SageMC's UI or SageTV's Default UI (the first step is to understand the difference between these two) - mention the ugly stuff, the "it doesn't work the way I think it should" stuff and how you would prefer it to work and look.

I've been saying that for a while. I keep seeing comments about how bad the UI is, but few can ever list anything that's actually "wrong" with it.

[Djc208]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

But what I do know is that the majority of the effort in creating a new UI (for Sage or any other application with a complex UI) is not about programming. Its about design.

I think that's one of the big hold-backs. Companies like MS and Apple employ people who's sole job is designing the layout and interface from a psychological prospective. No programming, just how people interact with the product. This is expensive and time consuming. I think the advantage is that there are only a few good ways to do it, so while it may not feel unique if it works better than by all means mimic it.

Setup will always be the biggest bottle neck to widespread adoption of Sage, but as we've seen before people will put up with a lot if they think the product is cool enough. Like Apple or not but one thing they've always done well is handle the interface, not only with the software but the hardware as well. But between the OS, the iPod, and now the iPhone while the hardware may be over-priced, the features lacking, and the software no more stable than any one else, their interfaces are some of the best, and lots of people are over-paying to use them.

[cncb]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

I realize that most would suggest SageMC, but I don't find it any better.

I don't understand comments like this. Did you find the XP MCE interface to be "horrible"? There really is very little difference between SageMC and XP MCE and I personally think that SageMC is better.

[gibsonpa]

I agree with some of the previous posters about SageMC having lots of flexibility for the UI and it may take some time to adjust.

My family used VMC for a few months last year, and did like the UI...but the limitations left us wanting more.

After installing Sage and SageMC we picked one of the built in SageMC themes that caught our eye. Maybe this is common knowledge, but these are the builtin SageMC themes we choose from (thanks Brent for the article and photos!):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96395704@N00/2195266700/

These seemed really cool to us.

Then we were able to tweak tons of things. We renamed the main menu items (like "My TV" to "TV"), removed some of the items on the main menu, password protected the setup menu, etc.

The WAF was so high after using it with one extender, she was begging for an extender for every TV...which we did last month. Could not be happier.

Just my .02

[Polypro]

Sage, whatever you do...DON'T make it look like VMC! I'm watching Ian Dixons' latest video podcast...he's showing VMC in use. Good Gawd! You guys like that UI? What's up with the Guide? No station logos? It looks tiny too. Pretty up what you have if you want, but lets not get carried away...

P

[Wormhoudt]

Originally Posted by cncb

I don't understand comments like this. Did you find the XP MCE interface to be "horrible"? There really is very little difference between SageMC and XP MCE and I personally think that SageMC is better.

A couple of things.

1: I am talking about VMC not MCE.
Vista is quite different from XP MCE. I agree with you that the stock configuration of SageMC feels like XP MCE. More like MCE 2004 than 2005, but whatever.

2: UI really is mostly about taste
I realize that fervent Sage supports sometimes get a little upset by claims of bad UI within Sage and SageMC. That isn't going to make people like the UI simply because they are told to. The facts are that a lot of people prefer the way VMC looks. That is about personal taste. Sage has bested VMC in most every other way. Why not nail the coffin shut?

All I have suggested is that if, in fact, Sage wants to attract some VMC users, they can do so by adding an interface that VMC users will find inticing. Like I said before, just add it as an option. Don't change any installation defaults.

[Wormhoudt]

Originally Posted by bialio

I think you have to give SageMC a try for longer than a few minutes before you can really say you like it or not. (I'm not saying that you haven't) It is very flexible as far as appearance. By default it looks kinda like the XP flavor of MCE, but that's easily changed. Go browse the SageMC Screen Shot thread and menu layout repository thread - there really are some pretty slick L&F alternatives there.

From a usability standpoint, I've never used the default STV (other than for configuration) so I can't really compare the two. I do know that my family has a very easy time with SageMC. I've never had to explain how it works......

btl.

I can't say that have tried SageMC for more than a few hours. Downloaded the Sage demo, SageMC and then configured everything. Spent some time mucking about. At least 2 or 3 hours. I appreciate the SageMC screenshot thread. But I found nothing that felt polished in the way that VMC does. I don't mean that ugly. There are obviously people who have spent an assload of time working on said interfaces. That is part of what is so attractive about the Sage community. The activity.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

2: UI really is mostly about taste
I realize that fervent Sage supporters sometimes get a little upset by claims of bad UI within Sage and SageMC. The facts are that a lot of people prefer the way VMC looks. That is about personal taste. Sage has bested VMC in most every other way. Why not nail the coffin shut?

Wormhoudt,
I agree with you & I'm sincerely interested in the specific things that you feel are missing that would make it better for you. Tell us/show us what those things are so we can either tell you how to get there or suggest the proper changes/choices to SageTV.


As we've said above, UI is a very individual thing - but I think we can get to a point where most if not all are happy with the UI. We just need to know the specifics of the needs/wants.

[Wormhoudt]

Originally Posted by Brent

List out the things you don't like about SageMC's UI or SageTV's Default UI (the first step is to understand the difference between these two) - mention the ugly stuff, the "it doesn't work the way I think it should" stuff and how you would prefer it to work and look.

I am more than willing to give this a try. I need to sit down with both UIs in front of me. This will be a little bit time consuming, so pardon me if it takes me a few days to respond. I'll try to sit down with it tonight and talk specifics.

Which feedback is more valuable comparing VMC with the default STV or with SageMC?

[Brent]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

I am more than willing to give this a try. I need to sit down with both UIs in front of me. This will be a little bit time consuming, so pardon me if it takes me a few days to respond. I'll try to sit down with it tonight and talk specifics.

I personally would appreciate your feedback. So many times people (myself included) say "Its not right" but don't say how it's not right. To fix any issues and make it better - we all need to know those details.

Which feedback is more valuable comparing VMC with the default STV or with SageMC?

your choice - I'd personally prefer you compare it to SageMC, but either one would be helpful. Thanks!

NOTE: Just so I don't get misunderstood with my comments above, I don't work for SageTV and am not affiliated with SageTV in any way (other than a happy user of their software). I do know that we users have input on SageTV's future and Sage listens to us. I also know that there are lots of very talented developers who work on themes & STV's that can often answer our needs.

[bialio]

In my view VMC is much closer to SageMC, so you'll probably find a way to customize SageMC to be more like VMC far easier than the default STV.

I think what would be most useful as far as comparisons is saying what you want to be able to do. A full list of how VMC is different from some STV probably isn't very useful.

example :
"VMC uses horizontal navigation heavily on the main screen, and that is what I like. By default both defaultSTV and SageMC use vertical."

This can be changed in SageMC. It won't mimic VMC identically, but when you get right down to it, if you have to have a GUI that looks like VMC, you should probably use VMC!

btl.

[stanger89]

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

2: UI really is mostly about taste
I realize that fervent Sage supports sometimes get a little upset by claims of bad UI within Sage and SageMC. That isn't going to make people like the UI simply because they are told to. The facts are that a lot of people prefer the way VMC looks. That is about personal taste. Sage has bested VMC in most every other way. Why not nail the coffin shut?

It's not that us "fervent Sage supporters" get upset by claims that the UI is bad, it's that we get frustrated with seeing these posts with out anyone (very few) being willing/able expand on that. I mean I look at Sage and VMC and I can completely understand that Sage looks less appealing, it's definitely not as flashy. But what I can't see (probably because I'm used to Sage) is what it is about how Sage works that's so much "worse".

All I have suggested is that if, in fact, Sage wants to attract some VMC users, they can do so by adding an interface that VMC users will find inticing. Like I said before, just add it as an option. Don't change any installation defaults.

I think most of us are all for "spiffing up" Sage to make it more appealing. I'm all for a glitzy interface

Originally Posted by Wormhoudt

I am more than willing to give this a try. I need to sit down with both UIs in front of me. This will be a little bit time consuming, so pardon me if it takes me a few days to respond. I'll try to sit down with it tonight and talk specifics.

This is exactly what we "need", some good, concrete observations/suggestions about what makes people bypass or quickly give up on Sage. I for one look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Which feedback is more valuable comparing VMC with the default STV or with SageMC?

I think to the community as a whole, comparing to the Stock STV would be the most useful, as that's people's first impression, and what seems to generate the most "passionate" responses.

Originally Posted by Brent

I personally would appreciate your feedback. So many times people (myself included) say "Its not right" but don't say how it's not right. To fix any issues and make it better - we all need to know those details.

Exactly

[MeInMaui]

Originally Posted by stanger89

I for one look forward to seeing what you come up with.

As do I.